Frankenstein show software

[smokeAndMirrors]

I currently control my shows using DMX (I use Daslight, I like it for some odd reason even though there are bits of it that suck pigs). Now I'd like to move over to ILDA and the temptation of Pangolin QuickShow is getting hard to resist. HOWEVER I have 3 lasers and I don't think I can stretch to 3 pieces of hardware. I'd like to control 2 side lasers with DMX and my central one with ILDA. Quickshow doesn't currently support DMX, however, so I need to run QS and Daslight at the same time. Is it feasible to trigger both simultaneously using MIDI?

I've also looked at Mamba which does do both ILDA and DMX, but it looks very unfriendly (spent an afternoon wrestling with it, didn't enjoy it). Is there anything else that would do the job?

[hobbybob]

Maybe it's possible to use a pangolin FB3 and use the ILDA part for controlling the middle laser and the DMX for the 2 outer lasers. Since i don't use DMX, one of the guru's might jump in.
The FB3-SE has DMX support, the FB3-XE doesn't but has a nice metal case around it ;-)

[smokeAndMirrors]

Hmm... in order to do things like chases, I would presumably need a 3rd piece of software - a MIDI sequencer - to drive the two? How messy is that?!

[Stuka]

LivePro (there is a version for the FB3) has built-in beam chase capability...
and just about everything in the software can be controlled / triggered via MIDI !

[smokeAndMirrors]

Well here I am a coupla months later, and still a bit stuck for what to do.

Except I have 5 lasers now -

* 2 x 300mW 532nm greens
* 600mW RGB
* 800mW RGB
* 475mW RGV

Now the thing is that I am doing laser shows for a local Pink Floyd tribute band. I need to control lights as well as lasers, so DMX is a necessary evil. But that restricts me either to

(a) the built-in laser pattern (acceptable, but frustrating knowing I can do so much more)

or

(b) the affordable to my budget (can't afford LD2000 for sure) laser software that can do both ILDA and DMX. This effectively means Mamba 2.0, 600GBP for ILDA on 1 laser and DMX on the others. With thisr option I must control all my fixtures - moving heads, scanners and LED parcans - with laser software that isn't really designed for it.

So I'm in a bit of a bind. What'd be great is if there was something that I could design a bunch of laser scenes using ILDA, dump the show up to a bit of hardware which can be subsequently triggered by my existing DMX software. Does such a beast exist?

[norty303]

I've read this and your other thread and I'm sort of struggling to understand where the problem lies.
If all of your laser projectors support DMX and ILDA, and you don't want to control them all independantly then you have 2 options.

Run all on ILDA doing the same thing (although you can invert axis for mirroring, etc)
If you want to just run DMX control for everything (lights and lasers) but want to design your own frames, then simply buy the FB3 package with DMX in option (SE?) and then you can upload custom frames with LiveQuick to the memory card, and access and manipulate them via DMX. So although the frames are transmitted to the projectors by ILDA, it is controlled by DMX from whatever desk you use for lighting.

I am a lighting and laser guy myself, and I much prefer running 2 systems, a proper lighting desk for my lighting, and LivePro/FB3 for my lasers. I get full features that way and use the best tool for each job. I've tried using DMX for laser control and found it to be a less than satisfactory experience.

Mind if I ask why you seem to be insistent on using just one control system for everything?

Sorry, just re-read this bit..

What'd be great is if there was something that I could design a bunch of laser scenes using ILDA, dump the show up to a bit of hardware which can be subsequently triggered by my existing DMX software. Does such a beast exist?

Yes, FB3 with LiveQuick. Exactly what it was designed for. And at ~US$600 you'll get change out of your £600, perhaps you'll even be able to get LivePro as well for your £600.

[smokeAndMirrors]

Run all on ILDA doing the same thing (although you can invert axis for mirroring, etc)
If you want to just run DMX control for everything (lights and lasers) but want to design your own frames, then simply buy the FB3 package with DMX in option (SE?) and then you can upload custom frames with LiveQuick to the memory card, and access and manipulate them via DMX. So although the frames are transmitted to the projectors by ILDA, it is controlled by DMX from whatever desk you use for lighting.

That sounds exactly like what I want.

Mind if I ask why you seem to be insistent on using just one control system for everything?

I learnt all my lighting stuff on Daslight - call it Baby Duck Syndrome if you will, but I find consoles a bit confusing. I prefer to have a single laptop running a single piece of software and not rely upon being ambidextrous to keep things synced.

Yes, FB3 with LiveQuick. Exactly what it was designed for. And at ~US$600 you'll get change out of your £600, perhaps you'll even be able to get LivePro as well for your £600.

I'm off to that Pangolin website now... Cheers norty!

[norty303]

When I bought my FB3 I bought what was then the OEM board without a case which was known as the Evaluation Kit (there was also the LA Freak hobbyist package which was $50 cheaper and no license to use commercially and I think had less boards). This came with all of the USB and DMX daughterboards and Bill later supplied me with a differential board as I hadn't been aware they existed when I ordered.
I'm not sure if they still do the eval kit, but I would suggest sending an email to Bill via the online form on the Pango site and explain what it is you want, perhaps even direct him to this thread. I'm sure he'll be able to tell you which product you require, and if it's a bit of a Frankenstein mashup of products they sell (or used to sell) I'm sure he'll make sure you get exactly what you need.

[smokeAndMirrors]

Ah ok here's the catch. If the FB3 XE (the external box) supported DMX I'd be home and dry. It doesn't (yet). It's still possible to drive with LiveQuick, but then that requires me to run 2 pieces of software at once and frankly my laptop screen is crowded as it is.

That leaves me with the FB3 SE, which requires a projector installation which I do not feel at all comfortable with doing myself. Not sure of the pricing for this either.

Back to square 1.

[norty303]

which requires a projector installation

Why so?

Surely you have the option to put it wherever you want?

So what's to stop you putting it in an enclosure yourself?

If you do a search back on the forum from the last couple of years you'll see a good many of us have bought the LAFreak/Eval kit and housed them ourselves. certainly I've got at least one photo on here that keeps getting re-used by people showing the internal connections, including how to switch between USB buss power and external power.
'Back in the day' that was the only option as Pango didn't ship them with housings.

Not sure of the pricing for this either

Why not ask Pangolin again? But I would guess its $600 the same as the XE. Certainly, my Eval kit was $600 so no reason to suspect they've changed the pricing significantly.

Or thinking outsiode the box, why not ask Bill for an XE and a DMX daughterboard. You could then add a small 3 pin connector of some kind (mini TRS jack?) to the XE case, and add your XLR connector in/out as needed. So many options...

[Stuka]

Why so?

Surely you have the option to put it wherever you want?

So what's to stop you putting it in an enclosure yourself?

If you do a search back on the forum from the last couple of years you'll see a good many of us have bought the LAFreak/Eval kit and housed them ourselves. certainly I've got at least one photo on here that keeps getting re-used by people showing the internal connections, including how to switch between USB buss power and external power.
'Back in the day' that was the only option as Pango didn't ship them with housings.



Why not ask Pangolin again? But I would guess its $600 the same as the XE. Certainly, my Eval kit was $600 so no reason to suspect they've changed the pricing significantly.

Or thinking outsiode the box, why not ask Bill for an XE and a DMX daughterboard. You could then add a small 3 pin connector of some kind (mini TRS jack?) to the XE case, and add your XLR connector in/out as needed. So many options...

PLUS -

Don't forget that the update to Quickshow should be releasing soon that supports DMX!

[norty303]

supports DMX!

Absolutely, although I'm not sure from previous posts by Bill on the subject that the intention is to provide fully featured alternative to a dedicated DMX desk, or rather provide some DMX control for things like foggers, effects wheels, etc
I'd guess you want the facility to record DMX to specific cues alongside existing frame selection/manipulation to make it a fully integrated solution for what smoke&mirrors looking to achieve.
Otherwise you're still having to select a cue, then a specific DMX element separately elsewhere in the application, which might as well just be done via a separate dedicated DMX application (imo)
For waht its worth I used to run LivePro and Chamsys MagicQ on the same laptop, with MagicQ on extended desktop on a touchscreen and this worked fairly well. Only thing I didn't like was the lack of redundancy.
I now have a dedicated laptop for Pango, and a dedicated PC for lighting, with the facility to run both apps from either PC in case of a failure. Just a case of maintaining same software builds/showfiles/workspaces across both machines, but I have a full copy of everything (drivers, software, installed folders, config, etc) on a USB key, so as long as I can find a spare PC, I can be up and running in about 5 mins.

[smokeAndMirrors]

OK let me approach this from another angle: Medialas Mamba 2 vs Quickshow for live displays. Anyone have any experience of that?

The "Live" interface on Mamba looks clunky and broken to me, and I'm not even sure you can control DMX from it? But if one can, I'd be seriously tempted to drop Pangolin cos they ain't been so helpful - largely dismissive, abrupt answers. Strange they don't want my money, but hey, it takes all sorts.

Guys, suggesting to me to house an FB3-SE myself may seem trivial job to you, but to me I'd be taking a soldering iron to £500 without really knowing what I was doing - and that's presuming I can find a suitable box with slots for DMX in, DMX thru, the ILDA out, USB, power supply, and an access slot for the SD card. (One OEM charged 1800 Euros for such a box, more than my budget and then some). What's more, I couldn't find the posts referred to above with connection pictures, so I am getting a bit frustrated with all this now.

[norty303]

I think you're making out the SE to be something it isn't, particularly based on your Pango forum post.
To be aware of why the SE comes bare boones requires knowing how it came about in the first place - basically as an OEM part for manufacturers to build into their own products. They have done a cased one, but without the DMX board as it wasn't considered a major requirement for people wanting an external controller (look at other DMX board solutions, they're all internal)

As for the mounting it yourself, I think you're over egging the pudding somewhat.
I don't think I had to do any soldering on mine, and the enclosure I used was a £4 one from Maplins. I used small drills and files to cut the slots, and regular brass standoffs to mount it.

As the barebones board was also sold to hobbiests as the LA Freak package, I don't see why Pangolin are out of order telling you you can simply mount it yourself. They are simply explaining how you can achieve what you want. Sure, you're frustrated at not being able to buy precisely the product you want, but they have provided you with enough info to move forward.
You seem to be wanting them to turn around and say they'll custom build you one. If that is the case, then simply ask someone on the forum to do it for you, it'll be far cheaper than paying Pangolin, however I still don't see a reason why you couldn't do it yourself. I did, and I'm far from an engineering genius.

[smokeAndMirrors]

As for the mounting it yourself, I think you're over egging the pudding somewhat.
I don't think I had to do any soldering on mine, and the enclosure I used was a £4 one from Maplins. I used small drills and files to cut the slots, and regular brass standoffs to mount it.

Well that's something at least. I still find it scary, in the sense that if I make a mistake then bang goes my money with no warranty or anything. No fricking WAY am I prepared to spend £X00 without some sort of warranty. Mamba seems a better deal in that regard.

As the barebones board was also sold to hobbiests as the LA Freak package, I don't see why Pangolin are out of order telling you you can simply mount it yourself.

I don't think they're "out of order". They are simply scaring me away to a competitor, and they don't care (William said as much). In fact they are so confident their product is the best that they seem utterly blind to the fact that they're making me jump through hoops to get it.

They are simply explaining how you can achieve what you want.

And I am simply explaining that as a customer who likes lasers and lighting but isn't keen on electronic engineering and invalid warranties that I find their products fall short of my - probably not uncommon - requirements. Christ, if the FB3-XE had the DMX board in it I'd have bought it by now! But they have compromised their product by design, IMHO.

Sure, you're frustrated at not being able to buy precisely the product you want,

For sure!

but they have provided you with enough info to move forward.

Move forward, perhaps. Get to where I want? - no way!

You seem to be wanting them to turn around and say they'll custom build you one.

Would have been nice, I guess. Or perhaps they could have pointed me at someone who could. Or simply listened and said "that's interesting, we will take that on board as our customers' needs are important to us".

If that is the case, then simply ask someone on the forum to do it for you, it'll be far cheaper than paying Pangolin,

Well I did wonder if someone might offer their services No volunteers so far, though.

[norty303]

What's that old saying about not asking and not getting?
if you filled out your profile so it showed where you are, AND asked specifically, then you might find someone willing to do it for you.

[smokeAndMirrors]

What's that old saying about not asking and not getting?

Yeah but I'm SHY! Seriously, seems a lot to ask.

if you filled out your profile so it showed where you are, AND asked specifically, then you might find someone willing to do it for you.

Duly done, now you all know I live in the fair city of Cambridge.

[norty303]

By the way, have you sen this...

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...stuff-for-sale

Already cutout, ready for mounting.

[smokeAndMirrors]

SO: is there someone out there who could help me create a box for an FB3-SE that has

o A slot for the SD card
o A 5V PSU (internal or external)
o ILDA out connector
o DMX in
o DMX thru
o USB in

Obviously I'd show my appreciation for time/parts/labour in some way. PM me if you can help.

[buffo]

If you don't get any replies, send a PM to Rob (Stanwax) and see if he's got the time. You will be very pleased with the results, trust me.

If no one else replies and Rob is too busy, then send a PM to Francesco Loon (Francesco) and see if he can assist you. True, he's in the Netherlands, but he's also an authorized Pangolin dealer (not to mention a great guy) and thus he's got everything he needs to help you out.

And finally, if you want to do live shows, seriously consider getting a license for Live Pro. It's the cat's meow when it comes to live laser show performances. Well worth the price!

Adam

[smokeAndMirrors]

Thanks guys, I've had a most splendid offer from a member of this forum to put an FB3-SE in a box. Sorted! (Well, I've still got to get the thing, it's on order now. And then there's the matter of saving pennies for LivePro... Dang this is an expensive hobby!)

[norty303]

See, a little persistence and lateral thinking and who knows what might be achieved!