A plea for safety, pl edition.

[mixedgas]

At Request, copied from my posts at LPF.

A Plea for EYE Safety!!
I'm concerned. A one watt laser pointer (Or ultra low cost laser projector, PL) for less then 200$ is a problem in the hands of those who are immature. If your running a group buy, the repercussions of this are on your heads.

I don't give a damn about lack of enforcement of federal laws in the US or Free Will or Personal Freedom. Let me rephrase that, I do give a damn about my ability to purchase tools, parts, and materials to do my job as a laser professional and my freedom.

In other words, please think twice before you sell blue kits at 200$ or less to some one who lacks maturity. Your shortchanging your own rights in the long run.

The federal government is failing on enforcement to the point that laser safety will pass to the state level, and that would be a non uniform mess. Five years ago this device would have had safeguards to prevent diode removal. It needs to be retrofitted right now to diodes bonded to a sled. That would make it a better projector for its intended use, anyway.

I hate to be a Cassandra (Greek Mythology, look her up) , but I ask
Those of you organizing massive group buys need to think about what your doing and whom your selling to.

At 700mW to 1 watt, injuries will be all too common, and blue has some unique short and long term PROVEN side effects with respect to color vision. Prolonged exposure to intense blue results in diminished green vision. This has been proven in studies of eye surgeons who used blue lasers to treat patients. The green vision comes back somewhat in 3-6 months. The surgeons were exposed to milliwatts at best for 20-40 minute sessions per patient.

Argon multiline blue/green has been largely replaced by green and yellow-green wavelengths for retinal surgery, blue/green was used because it was what was available with the technology of the time. Surgeons have long decried the tissue side effects of blue green, and only in the past 5 years has DPSS made its way into eye surgery.


This blue wavelength has some unique biochemical actions on releasing free radicals, and is strongly adsorbed by red blood cells in capillaries. It causes larger damaged areas in retinal tissue and is far more likely to be adsorbed by the tissue then 532 nm light.

I'm not open to arguments on this one, I've worked with 488 nm light since 1989 or so.

There is no legitimate non military need for a watt of collimated visible light in a hand held device.

You certainly have the right to blow out your own retinas. But when you affect others the game changes.

Blue glare in a aircraft will NOT be a good thing.

Don't even bother to make the lame comments about the poorer beam quality, high divergence, etc.

167 people are looking at this thread as I type. Wait till it gets slashdotted, kipcayed, etc..

It is to the communities advantage to self regulate, restrict buyer age, make buyers sign a warning notice, and to drive the price upwards.

Your new laser regulator will NOT be the CDRH if this gets out of hand. It will be the FAA, US Customs, Homeland Security, and your LOCAL POLICE. FAA had no problems getting a instant moratorium on outdoor laser shows some years ago, and the FAA can and will get enforcement instantly, if this gets out of hand. And it will be a FELONY and CIVIL PENALITES.

Freedom is not free, it comes with great responsibility.


You have been warned. You can also bet I and others will be calling Casio first thing Monday Morning.

Steve

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part II, Also copied from my other post at LPF
__________________________________________________ ____________

At the powers of these blue diodes, anything less then a OD5 AMERICAN NATIONAL STANDARDS INSTITUTE CERTIFIED AND TESTED GOGGLE IS A SAFETY HAZARD IN ITSELF!! A 25$ safety Google DOES NOT have the testing needed for prolonged use.

IF you are dependent on a pair of Goggles for your eye safety you just FLUNKED laser safety 101. Goggles are designed to be a last resort. True laser safety involves controlling access to the laser light and its scattering.

And don't say to me OD 4 is enough, you need a safety factor in the exposure far beyond the 5 mW of class IIIA, in case the diode exceeds its design power or the goggles have a defect. If it can do 800 mW for N amount of time, it can do 2000 mW for at least a brief time.

In a professional situation, we would enclose this beam, mount it on a optical table below waist height, interlock it to the lab door, terminate it properly, and train the operator. We would also measure the scattering to ensure levels compliant with the ANSI and 21 CFR Rules. It would not be waved around at full power, power would be reduced during adjustment. It would have a safety shutter, and a emission indicator. Training would be documented, and a keyswitch used. If the emission could leave the lab, into a public area, there would be hell to pay! By definition most pointer users take their pointers public.


Untested 25$ goggles are NOT acceptable with these diodes.

AMENDED FOR PL:

IN the US, IN PUBLIC, FOR DEMONSTRATION LASER DISPLAYS (aka Laser Shows) SUCH BEAMS MUST BE 3 METERS UP FROM THE HIGHEST ACCESS POINT IN THE AUDIENCE AND TWO METERS HORIZONTALLY OUT OF REACH, BY LAW!


Steve

[shrad]

I can only agree, having worked with lab lasers for a short time (innova 200, verdi 18, avia and chameleon)

if you plan on getting goggles, please do it without hesitation

noir laser shields have top notch goggles for a very decent price (OD5 for mine, one pair for green-blue and another for red-NIR)

--> visit www.noirlaser.com for more info <--

[smogthemog]

I completely agree Steve it's just down right stupid to even contemplate advertising the making of such, or worse, advertising the 'here's how to make' such an instrument.
1W of laser light should be controllable AT ALL TIMES and should not be made as free to shoot around as a pointer would make it.

Leave this sort of laser to the forums that deal with pointers and lets carry on here on PL with a prefered 'non' pointer policy.

[Stoney3K]

I completely agree Steve it's just down right stupid to even contemplate advertising the making of such, or worse, advertising the 'here's how to make' such an instrument.
1W of laser light should be controllable AT ALL TIMES and should not be made as free to shoot around as a pointer would make it.

Unfortunately, there is no technical way to do that. It's (nearly) impossible to protect a 'handheld device' with a security mechanism that only allows emission when a qualified operator handles it. You could think of some RFID-based scheme, but that's pushing the envelope a little.

As someone said, guns don't kill people and lasers don't pop someone's eyeballs. It's the person operating them that does the damage and is ignorant or malignant enough to do so.

The ultimate enforcement of purchase and handling of laser equipment WILL be up to the law, one way or another. There is enough potentially unsafe equipment in everybody's home, still, everyone knows how to operate a car, gas range or electrical outlet safely.

Trying to get the equipment out of the world is pointless. The ultimate way to make sure these things stay in safe hands is to ensure the hands they end up in are, actually, safe.

[m0f]

Eye safety is definitely a major concern. However there's a side of me that would hate to see these become scarce again should casio start gluing them in.

I guess what I'm saying is we have a source of cheap blue now most likely temporary, and I can't afford to stock up

I think the best thing that can be done at this point is to educate people of the potential hazards and limit availability to those who can demonstrate maturity. Don't forget laserscopes and cubr can be found fairly cheaply on ebay as well and the danger level are incomparable.

Raising the costs back to Nichia bend over prices would just screw ourselves imo

[allthatwhichis]

...............

[smogthemog]

We as a forum have no hold over the laserscopes and CuBr's we all see for sale/auction on Ebay but we as a group should be able to have some sort of regulation on what is posted in this form in regards to the instructions on how to make a 1W laser pointer and thus I think it should be moderated so.

Why anyone want to make a pointer of this strength is beyond me

That is my view and I am entitled to it

[m0f]

Don't get me wrong, pointers are already too high powered as it is. And besides that, how anyone can get that much enjoyment out of burning tape is beyond me

I'm thinking more along the lines of pair of cheap rb (lol) or rgb flank projectors. And perhaps a giant lumia

[danielbriggs]

How do you all suppose I implement this into the group buy?

I've thought long and hard about the safety side, but deemed it too hard to "police".
There is the argument; "well, cancel the GB". I feel that would do more way more harm than good...
People know what they are getting; after all "Guns don't kill people..." etc. etc.
I DO NOT want to see a single one of my "GB" diodes go into a pointer; and will be appalled if someone actually thinks it's a good idea to construct one.

I DO want people to have cheap blue for their PROJECTORS, as that is what this place had needed for a long time.
I think the best I can do is write + print a disclaimer with every package to warn people just exactly what this diode *could* do. (But I have a strong suspicion this may be a waste of time and paper )
But who am I to decide what people can and can't do?

[Stoney3K]

Here's a thought: Only allow GB's to people with a valid ILDA membership number.

If they're an ILDA member (even just private or student), there's a lot more chance they actually know what they're doing.

[mixedgas]

Laserscopes need biannual tuneups and a touchup every roadtrip. They soon die if not PMed correctly. CVLs and CuBRs and argons over say 300 mW need tender loving care. Not to mention extension cords that cost between $2.00 and 10.00$ a foot to make.. In other words, some skills and effort.

Something you stick a pair of A123 or AA cells in and get 600-700 mW that is easily hidden in the palm or your hand and is controlled by a protruding button, and activated as easily as a TV remote by a three year old is a far greater hazard.

Steve

[Diachi]

Here's a thought: Only allow GB's to people with a valid ILDA membership number.

If they're an ILDA member (even just private or student), there's a lot more chance they actually know what they're doing.

This doesn't seem like a good idea, while I see what you are saying - as far as I am aware an ILDA membership is not free, and many people who know what they are talking about may not be able to afford one or justify the cost of said membership.

[MechEng3]

I personally am not certain to the avilablity of this product, as is provided, much longer. I have seen factory recalls reach far and deep....fast. This may be very well one of those devices. With the current state of things in general, yes it will be hard to try and regulate much of anything. But like you stated....if a bunch of accidents start to take place in the media.....game over. For everything and will most likely be nation wide. That would not make me a very happy camper....sucking all the jot form this hobby. Safety and proper training.....even investigation of unknown dangers that may exist are warranted. Let's all keep this a safe hobby.

[Stoney3K]

This doesn't seem like a good idea, while I see what you are saying - as far as I am aware an ILDA membership is not free, and many people who know what they are talking about may not be able to afford one or justify the cost of said membership.

If a person is seriously planning to do lasershows, and can spend $1000 on a new projector, they would probably be able to spare another $100 for the ILDA membership fee. I know that people buying a $400 Chinese projector off the shelf would be less inclined to do so, but that's just the kind of person we would want to keep away from high power systems until they're ready.

People who know how to operate shows safely and are willing to share that information with others aren't the issue. Nor are 'Allens', e.g. the people who will want to circumvent safety measures and risk everything to get high power systems running. They've got a brain (sort of), they're just using it wrong. If they want to get their hands on a 1W Nichia, they will get it, no matter.

The people we have to protect are the 13-year-olds who just got one of these for Christmas and shows everybody how cool it is to light a blunt with a blue laser in the schoolyard. These people aren't willing to deliberately ignore safety measures and warnings, they're just completely ignorant and don't understand the risks.

[danielbriggs]

Restrictions for ILDA only members is nonsensical...

[Diachi]

If a person is seriously planning to do lasershows, and can spend $1000 on a new projector, they would probably be able to spare another $100 for the ILDA membership fee. I know that people buying a $400 Chinese projector off the shelf would be less inclined to do so, but that's just the kind of person we would want to keep away from high power systems until they're ready.

People who know how to operate shows safely and are willing to share that information with others aren't the issue. Nor are 'Allens', e.g. the people who will want to circumvent safety measures and risk everything to get high power systems running. They've got a brain (sort of), they're just using it wrong. If they want to get their hands on a 1W Nichia, they will get it, no matter.

The people we have to protect are the 13-year-olds who just got one of these for Christmas and shows everybody how cool it is to light a blunt with a blue laser in the schoolyard. These people aren't willing to deliberately ignore safety measures and warnings, they're just completely ignorant and don't understand the risks.

I've spent £150 on my projector and that is about all I can afford, I will have blue, I do have green, and I have a case and galvos. I seriously cannot afford any more, I can't even afford mounts for the blues - I have £11.29 in my bank account. Do you think I can afford the ILDA membership? I sure as hell know what I'm doing though.

I also don't imagine that 13 year olds smoke blunts, I doubt that they could even roll one ... or afford one.

[rMuD]

Being a ILDA member will make you safe? That's like saying Mixedgas will return your gear and/or with screws in it. People will be stupid and people do get hurt.. "Please Think of the Children" fear mongering is ridiculous. 300mw Is/was safe these days? How many people got injured by them so far? If you want to have a clean conscious and be responsible, including pictures and educational material on how to calculate power density at a distance pertaining to the 445nm diode.


300mw of 405nm is more dangerous in just to blink reaction time. 445nm is 9.1x bright to the human eye than 405nm and 2x dimmer than 650nm

[Mattatya]

Here's a thought: Only allow GB's to people with a valid ILDA membership number.

I would have to disagree too. I am not a member of ILDA but I do hold safety #1 importance when performing laser services.

Some folks on here may not be long time members of PL nor post much on PL, but who are we to determine who gets what into their hands.

It is sad that people don't see safety as a top priority value but who are we to judge those based on post stats and member account numbers.

I am making an assumption but I'm sure everyone misses a safety step in our daily lives like driving their vehicle, Not using turn signals, mirror turning and not physically looking, But the dealership will still sell you a car.

I'm not justifying lack of safe driving but who are we to police?

Also, I'm making an assumption but I don't know if everyone on hear selling has a business licenses to sell items. I'm sure most do but there are risks involved selling without a license. So I would assume folks selling parts know the risks of selling to someone. I believe it should be up to you the individual seller to make that judgment call to sell to folk not a group vote of who has what experience.

[dsli_jon]

Hey Steve -

Thank you, Sir, for speaking out... Amen to everything you said and point you made.

How do you all suppose I implement this into the group buy?

I've thought long and hard about the safety side, but deemed it too hard to "police".

Here's my simple suggestion (since, yes, 'ILDA-membership', post-counts, in-and-of themselves, mean zero... ie: an 'ILDA-member' allowed (cause they 'subbed-it out') THIS to happen on national TV... )

Just Say No. Just don't sell to anyone you don't KNOW and/or at-least know-of their experience-level. Period. Don't let the lure of making a quick-buck, allow you to be part of what *could* turn-out to be a disaster.

Sure, might turn-out fine. But, think of it this way: (I always seem go back to guns, for some reason ) - it is your *right* to sell your gun to someone. It is the buyers *right* to buy and own it. But if you are the one that sells that pistol to a 13 yr old (or 12 or 18 or 26 - the age does not matter - point is: someone who's experience-level is in-question) - that ends up *accidentally* shooting his little brother in the face - How are you gonna feel, later??

But who am I to decide what people can and can't do?

...but who are we to police?

You guys are EVERYthing. The buck stops with you. Either you sell to someone you don't KNOW / at-least attempt to 'verify' thier qualifications / experience-level - or you don't.

Remember my 'scoffed-at'...

Do you think I am considered "Qualified" in your mind Jon?

...attempt to *ask* a seller to ASK before he just-sold? http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...897#post143897
I can at least feel better, knowing I TRIED. Hopefully, whomever ended-up buying that Laserscope (for a 1/10th of its' value ) will turn-out to have-been a responsible / experienced - and with Class IV/pulsed lasers - laserist, vs a... well, I'm sure you all know what I am thinking, there...

That's my suggestion. KNOW YOUR BUYER / at least, 'INTERVIEW' them / ask for thier 'qualifications' - if they 'get offended', imo, they don't *deserve* to own something like this, and that is probably a good indicator of thier 'maturity-level'... maybe.

THIS IS A CLASS IV LASER PRODUCT, PEOPLE!!!! THINK before you sell, that's all...

peace..
j

[Zoof]

I applaud Steve for the notice, it contains information I did not know and raises more concern with me for these diodes than I already had - thanks!

This notice should be included with every diode sold in the group buys.

It may also be time to come up with a PL -responsibility- logo. Nothing technical like a lab warning sticker but a nice logo that shows and reflects the responsibility, skills and knowledge shared here on PL. Something like a mix of: "proud to be a laseritst" and "eye safety first".

Like Steve said, self regulation is the key to freedom. Otherwise the blue diodes may be more of a game changer than we bargained for.

[mixedgas]

Quote:

If you want to have a clean conscious and be responsible, including pictures and educational material on how to calculate power density at a distance pertaining to the 445nm diode.

end quote,

We have done that several times on PL. I'll ask Spec to make a sticky for it.

Getting the copywrited ANSI lookup table requires you to purchase the Z136 standard. However It is available for free, I've posted the file here, and on LPF many times before, A excellent copy of the chart is in Army Medical Publicaton TB 524

002_tbmed524.pdf

Which is available here: http://chppm-www.apgea.army.mil/laser/Main.html

Or by goggling "Army Laser Safety"

The calculation examples are in Appendix B on Page 111 and the tables for wavelength specific numbers start on Page 207

The CDRH's own Audience Scanning Calcs are here, from the last flame war we had about calculation methods on PL:

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...ing%20mixedgas

A reduced function on line calculator is here:

http://www.laser-professionals.com/p....php?pageid=54

It has issues with short distances and non circular beams however.

PL user DOC has a spreadsheet here:

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...5&d=1261568920

Again, for mainly circular beams.

Caveats, Measuring divergence is problematic in a multimode broad stripe laser diode such as these. Most simple methods assume TEM00 mode, and these are ANYTHING BUT TEM. Good methods involve a power meter or photodiode, a translation stage and a knife edge. Otherwise it is difficult to make accurate assumptions based on shining the spot on the wall and using a ruler to guess the 1/e^2 points.

Understanding the math is problematic for most people. Rob, why don't you write a JAVA calculator and stick it on line some place.

445 is in the actinic range, as is 405, so the hazard number is a bit different then the straight visual table.

Steve

[JohnYayas]

The simple solution is either sell them, or don't sell them. Do what you think is right. The reality is that anyone can buy one of these projectors and part it out and that opens the door to people selling diodes on ebay, other forums, craigslist, newsgroups, and everywhere else with no trouble. Making PL group buy rules will only prevent people on PL from selling diodes to other people on PL. And since PL members are typically pretty informed about laser safety, that means whoever is selling them on here probably knows what is going on, and whoever is buying them on here probably knows what is going on. So, make rules for being ILDA members and whatever else is suggestions just is pretty silly. They'll just go next door and buy them.

Safety is always a concern. But, diodes have been sold for years at power levels that can cause serious damage. I just think it is kind of silly, and mostly self serving, how this discussion is going in this thread.

No offesne to anyone, I hope. I'm just trying to be the voice of reason and reality.

[danielbriggs]

Don't let the lure of making a quick-buck, allow you to be part of what *could* turn-out to be a disaster.

Jon, that factor has exactly 0% weighting in my mind; as I don't make a penny...
Appreciate the other advice...

The simple solution is either sell them, or don't sell them. Do what you think is right. The reality is that anyone can buy one of these projectors and part it out and that opens the door to people selling diodes on ebay, other forums, craigslist, newsgroups, and everywhere else with no trouble. Making PL group buy rules will only prevent people on PL from selling diodes to other people on PL. And since PL members are typically pretty informed about laser safety, that means whoever is selling them on here probably knows what is going on, and whoever is buying them on here probably knows what is going on. So, make rules for being ILDA members and whatever else is suggestions just is pretty silly. They'll just go next door and buy them.

Safety is always a concern. But, diodes have been sold for years at power levels that can cause serious damage. I just think it is kind of silly, and mostly self serving, how this discussion is going in this thread.

No offesne to anyone, I hope. I'm just trying to be the voice of reason and reality.

John,
That fully summarised the conclusion of my thought process...
Spot on...

[White-Light]

You have been warned. You can also bet I and others will be calling Casio first thing Monday Morning.

Steve

I agree with everything you say Steve apart from this.

Why take away from people the only cheap source of projector blue there is?

I personally hope that all diodes in all colours become this cheap as this is thje only way forward for the hobbyist side of the industry which unfortunately currently excludes many people because of the sheer cost of projector construction.

To call for Casio to make these diodes non removeable is like calling for cars to be made no driveable in case some idiot should choose to drive them recklessly. Its simply overkill.

A far better solution is to step up the calls for responisble policies when making these into pointers over on the LPF.

Even if you manage to get Casio to exceed to your demand I don't see it stopping anything. Someone in China is reading this now who will know how to get those diodes from the supply chain way before Casio ever put them into projectors and you can bet your bottom dollar that even if Casio do make them non removeable, a whole flood of Chinese manufacturered high power blue laser pointers are already on their way to the worlds market places and there's nothing you or I can do to stop them. Bottom line is, Casio making the diodes unavailable will only affect the genuine hobbyist or LP enthusiast. Everyone else will just buy pre-manufactured ones from Far Eastern countries off ebay where there's no reliance on projector harvesting to obtain them

[drlava]

You can also bet I and others will be calling Casio first thing Monday Morning.

While I agree with your sentiment, I think you are overreacting here. Remember that IR diodes MUCH more powerful than these have been available on ebay for years. Has anyone been calling coherent asking them to have their FACs self destruct when removed? The sky's not falling, only the price of blue