OH OH ...Can I be on the front row???

[Laserman532]

Another beautiful and "stunning" display!

http://www.youtube.com/user/LASERSHO.../0/ocNkAKcl5-c

heart-unicorn-animated-horse.gif

[badger1666]

should have been for an eye surgery conference because i bet all the front row need it now
man that is bad ,only in eastern europe

[ZAMO]

should have been for an eye surgery conference because i bet all the front row need it now
man that is bad ,only in eastern europe

you beat me to it,i am not up on eu law but that cant be right.

[Jem]

should have been for an eye surgery conference because i bet all the front row need it now
man that is bad ,only in eastern europe

you beat me to it,i am not up on eu law but that cant be right.

Oh pleeeeeeeeease, for goodness sake, let's not start all this again guys

[mccarrot]

We should have "americans flaming on european audiance scanning" restrictions

Andy always uses BAM's to "protect" the "front rows"

I predict the 445nm 1W laserpointer hype will do much much more harm than these shows.

[Laserman532]

We should have "americans flaming on european audiance scanning" restrictions

Andy always uses BAM's to "protect" the "front rows"

I predict the 445nm 1W laserpointer hype will do much much more harm than these shows.

hehe ok.........i chuckled when you said "bam" for people in the front row...but it should have more like BAMMMMMM!!!!

dont get so offended.... in case you are curious...im and equal opportunity flamer..if an american does it...he gets called out too. (does allen ring a bell...DING)

[soforene]

My eyes were frazzled just watching the video.
AND I was wearing my flourescent jacket and Toe-Tectors at the time.
Therefore I'm due for some compo and as the links were posted on this forum I'm thinking that admin owe me a couple of thousands pounds.

But in case I don't get the dosh then I'll just join the other sheep in declaring
"OMG! That was illegal/unlawful/dangerous/etc. and someone should be sued before those crazy laserists set fire to yet more eyeballs !!"

p.s. Baa-aaa-aaa-aaa..........

[Doc]

Not wishing to jump on the band wagon here, but, if that was any less than 200x MPE I'll eat my desk.

Then again it shows how conservative the MPE figure actually is, SRL do hundreds of shows a year.

If we take the noise threshold for wearing hearing protection on construction site for instance; I measured a (pretty loud TBH) female friend of mine speaking last week without her knowing: She exceeded the 'safe limit' by 10dB whilst just 'chatting' to my missus.

[soforene]

Gobby Cow !

[Doc]

Gobby Cow !

Yep, I created a web page for her

Google "the loudest noise ever recorded" and click on "The Noise"

She has been the number one google search result for 2 years, which really pisses her off

[soforene]

I'd have preferred a link.

But then again, looking at that pic I think your humantarian instincts may have taken over in an attempt to spare those of a nervous disposition.

[Doc]

I'd have preferred a link.

Yesh, but the shearch helpsh with the google ratingsh.

[Insanity]

I have a friend who speaks so loud, the neighbours complained about the volume of his voice, before complaining about the volume of my music... In fact he did actually manage to talk over the sound system at Manumission, and that's going it some... Maybe he should get together with your friend Doc....

Mark

[mccarrot]

I still don't understand why changing someone hearing by having loud sound systems (above 85dB for a longer time can already cause hearing damage, while in a club dB level upto 110dB is not unheard of) is widely acceptable, but when we talk about exceeding MPE which possible can change someone vision its unacceptable.

People sometimes talk about exceeding MPE will blind you, but to blind someone you have to exceed the MPE level by a realy REALY high level (Like the Russian incident)

I have been to allot of raves in the last 12 years and I have seen allot of audiance scanning shows WAY over MPE (scanning below MPE is not effective enough) and while scanning way over MPE (like 200x MPE) WILL cause changes to the eye, but most people would not even notice these changes due to several reasons.

The changes in the eye caused by shows above MPE (up to a level) will at least not affect your daily live (real personal experiance!), just like damage to your hearing due to loud sounds systems will not affect your daily live.

Please note, I'm not saying scanning above MPE is safe or even acceptable and it definitely needs a risk assessment, but a 200MPE will not kill you or completely blind you.

[-bart-]

I still don't understand why changing someone hearing by having loud sound systems (above 85dB for a longer time can already cause hearing damage, while in a club dB level upto 110dB is not unheard of) is widely acceptable, but when we talk about exceeding MPE which possible can change someone vision its unacceptable.

People sometimes talk about exceeding MPE will blind you, but to blind someone you have to exceed the MPE level by a realy REALY high level (Like the Russian incident)

I have been to allot of raves in the last 12 years and I have seen allot of audiance scanning shows WAY over MPE (scanning below MPE is not effective enough) and while scanning way over MPE (like 200x MPE) WILL cause changes to the eye, but most people would not even notice these changes due to several reasons.

The changes in the eye caused by shows above MPE (up to a level) will at least not affect your daily live (real personal experiance!), just like damage to your hearing due to loud sounds systems will not affect your daily live.

Please note, I'm not saying scanning above MPE is safe or even acceptable and it definitely needs a risk assessment, but a 200MPE will not kill you or completely blind you.

As I see it..

Deliberately injuring people (and animals for that matter) is unethical.
Therefore deliberately exposing people to a risk of injury is unethical too.

All the rest is BS,
It all boils down to what is publically accepted.
And what is publically accepted changes from time to time and from place to place.

Look at it like alcohol, a hard drug causing death, injuries and mayhem all over the place. But...It's publically accepted. If today a new synthetic drug was invented, with exactly the same addictive and harmful properties it would be banned tomorrow. It just hasn't been publically accepted.

It is publically accepted that your hearing will be dammaged at raves and parties.
It is common knowledge that you should wear plugs if your hearing is valuable to you.
It is publically not accepted that your vision will be damaged at raves and parties.
It not common knowledge that *some amateurs* are pushing the limits just because the haven't had one incident yet.

Therfore you can't compare decibels and watts. You can't force the public to accept one thing just because they accept the other. And it certainly doesn't work that way in court.

Besides that, you can't define yourself as the golden-injury-standard, audio nor visual. These standards are not there to project John Doe. They're there to protect little Suzy at the front row with +9 prescription glasses who just happens to be born with just a few delicate rods and cones.

Andy may learn his lesson sooner or later. Speculatively one day at one of his spectacular shows the ministers wife will be at the front row. She wearing her reading glasses because she wants to read the program and someone has just turned down the lights. Her pupils widen and when she looks up she is instantly hit with a pencil beam. Her husband who knows his ways around democracy will not rest until the one responsible rots in hell. But then again this may happen sooner or later or never.

[mccarrot]

I understand what you saying about not public accepted.

But in the other hand, I don't think you will find a little suzy with +9 glasses at a rave.
So I do find at higher risk location the limits could be stretched, like 10MPE proposal.

[norty303]

It's nothing at all to do with being publically acceptable.

It's to do with the fact that people know that loud noises for long periods makes you deaf, and you can tell its happening because it's uncomfortable. And so they can take precautions if they wish, like ear plugs.

Most people generally don't know that lasers are dangerous, and so they don't take any precautions for that one in a million hit. They rely on the fact that the laser operator knows the dangers and takes reasonable steps to protect them, because in the most part they are ignorant of the dangers.

Ask you average punter about why they think lasers might be dangerous and you'll probably get an answer back about epilepsy....

[ElektroFreak]

The entire laser community is sensitive to safety for the most part. We all worry about high-powered pointers causing injury because the risk is real.. We should certainly also worry about irresponsible professional laser shows because the risk is both real and will directly affect the laser show community specifically. To me, if these shows are in fact unsafe (and I have no idea how on earth the show in that video could be safe) then they present a greater risk to our specific niche of the laser world than any other laser-related irresponsible behavior

[andyf97]

Here we go again,

Nothing else to do with your time Pat?

You seam to spend 24 hours per day on your computer writing on forums, I thought you were an expert fully loaded with laser business with all your huge knowledge. I guess not.

You have not got any clue what powers were used there, like usual you use your keyboard before knowing facts, also that camera used is very sensitive to laser light, we use the same camera for many events and each time we use that particular camera we get comments about safety.

The lasers there are 4 x 1w RGB and 2 x 1w green. Yes I know they look more like 10+ watts. I was standing there next to the camera at that event thinking the lasers looked too low power.

So whats next then Patty, if you want to advertise our shows on forums is great, saves me from posting.

Its about learning here and nobody asked how we synchronized with the orchestra yet. Nobody interested to know how to do such things? Says something doesn't it.

Well I guess not, much more easy to say that is bad that is dangerous, sooner or later, one day it will happen.

Pat, I would really like to see a show you did, a public show, one you did that makes you such a worldwide expert in safety at public events. Go on show me a video not just words then maybe I will give your comments some credibility.

[ElektroFreak]

If I were to try to sync a show to an orchestra I would do it with some preplanning, using a recording of the precise set that will be played.. Then I'd choreograph a show to sync with it. It wouldn't hurt to run through it in advance with the orchestra at a dress rehearsal if possible. I would think that any show that requires perfectly exact synchronization would need to be created and choreographed in advance of the show. That's an interesting topic though, and I agree that there should be more info here about how to do it successfully..

[Laserman532]

My day job as a super hero fighting crime and righting injustices keeps me very busy. You would not be impressed by any shows I have ever been involved with...I mostly operated in the US legally where I followed the 3 meter rule (keep the light out of your audience eyeballs...rule). Even tho I have operated in third world countries...I prefer to not intentionally expose my audience to hazardous levels of laser light...when asked to audience scan...I declined.

We have asked you numerous times how you expose eyeballs above class 1 safely you declined to answer except with...
.heart-unicorn-animated-horse.gif

Im standing by to see some dancers with casio projectors mounted on their shoulders! That would be awesome

Dont get so offended....just come clean...it is good for your conscience

[Laserman532]

If I were to try to sync a show to an orchestra I would do it with some preplanning, using a recording of the precise set that will be played.. Then I'd choreograph a show to sync with it. It wouldn't hurt to run through it in advance with the orchestra at a dress rehearsal if possible. I would think that any show that requires perfectly exact synchronization would need to be created and choreographed in advance of the show. That's an interesting topic though, and I agree that there should be more info here about how to do it successfully..

how about hit "play" when the orchestra starts playing. X100...irrelevant...
BFD we use to do it with 8 track reel to freakin reels.. "oh, but that is not how we did it" blah, blah, freakin, blah

diversion and bait switching dont change the facts.

hehe nice disclaimer in your signature (not elektrofreaks...but andys)

[andyf97]

how about hit "play" when the orchestra starts playing. X100...irrelevant...
BFD we use to do it with 8 track reel to freakin reels.. "oh, but that is not how we did it" blah, blah, freakin, blah

diversion and bait switching dont change the facts.

hehe nice disclaimer in your signature (not elektrofreaks...but andys)

Hahahah, not worth writing anything else to a anti-social.

[Laserman532]

Hahahah, not worth writing anything else to a anti-social.

andy i have nothing personal against you. Im a truther...thats all. This aint my first rodeo!

"no body is interested in how we sync it to a orchestra" - Bait and Switch - diversion

"not worth writing anything else to a anti-social" = I have no legitimate way to dispute him so i will call him names...

[andyf97]

"not worth writing anything else to a anti-social" = I have no legitimate way to dispute him so i will call him names...

Pat,

You have a history of anti social behavior with quite a few members of this and other forums, so you are not worth time spent on the keyboard. Hope you understand why I am not vaguely interested to have childish arguments with you, your word games don't work with me as simply I am not interested in any thing you have to say until it becomes constructive.