Zero Point Energy, Perpetual motion is possible

[Pianoman]

Hey everyone. I have long been interested in the "free" power that magnets release. Free energy is ever present in our universe, and so far the only physical means of tapping into it, is magnets. The power of repulsion, always present, and we don't have to input energy to create a magnetic field unless we r dealing with electromagnets (not the case here). To the point, I'm interested in creating a zero point energy machine that harnesses that power. Basically the setup I have consists of a wheel with an even number of magnets opposite each other and evenly spaced to balance the wheel. These magnets are ONLY one pole. The opposite pole is placed on a fixed mount nearly touching the outside of the wheel. The repulsion force causes the wheel to spin. The rotational energy would allow for electricity production, similar to that of a windmill (the wheels axel connects to a gearbox and generator connected to a dc/ac converter). This would theoretically convert rotational energy to electricity. You might say, "well such a device would be capable of only infinitesimal voltages." HOWEVER, imagine large scale versions utilizing massive neodymium (N45 grade of course) magnets, loads of them. Anybody detect a solution to our power needs? I do. Another potential concern, "the cost of enough units of such devices would be unrealistic. At our current spending rate for electricity, a year of government funding and consumer support could easily make this happen. I'm not an expert and I'm not claiming to be one, I'm certainly not. I'm simply a sophomore college student throwing out a dream of mine, combined with a few weeks of dabbling research. I see potential, but I repeat I'm just dreaming. Any engineers or individuals with experience on this topic? I'd much appreciate any feedback. I'm going to try nevertheless because it will be a fun science project and neodymium magnets are fun, but feedback would still be much appreciated! Thanks guys.

Jonathan

[taggalucci]

Something like this...? http://www.google.com/patents?id=4sI...page&q&f=false

[swamidog]

good luck with this part: "These magnets are ONLY one pole."

Hey everyone. I have long been interested in the "free" power that magnets release. Free energy is ever present in our universe, and so far the only physical means of tapping into it, is magnets. The power of repulsion, always present, and we don't have to input energy to create a magnetic field unless we r dealing with electromagnets (not the case here). To the point, I'm interested in creating a zero point energy machine that harnesses that power. Basically the setup I have consists of a wheel with an even number of magnets opposite each other and evenly spaced to balance the wheel. These magnets are ONLY one pole. The opposite pole is placed on a fixed mount nearly touching the outside of the wheel. The repulsion force causes the wheel to spin. The rotational energy would allow for electricity production, similar to that of a windmill (the wheels axel connects to a gearbox and generator connected to a dc/ac converter). This would theoretically convert rotational energy to electricity. You might say, "well such a device would be capable of only infinitesimal voltages." HOWEVER, imagine large scale versions utilizing massive neodymium (N45 grade of course) magnets, loads of them. Anybody detect a solution to our power needs? I do. Another potential concern, "the cost of enough units of such devices would be unrealistic. At our current spending rate for electricity, a year of government funding and consumer support could easily make this happen. I'm not an expert and I'm not claiming to be one, I'm certainly not. I'm simply a sophomore college student throwing out a dream of mine, combined with a few weeks of dabbling research. I see potential, but I repeat I'm just dreaming. Any engineers or individuals with experience on this topic? I'd much appreciate any feedback. I'm going to try nevertheless because it will be a fun science project and neodymium magnets are fun, but feedback would still be much appreciated! Thanks guys.

Jonathan

[Pianoman]

Something similar to that yes, although I feel that there are better design possibilities that are yet to be tried. The other question is, with this being so feesible, why hasn't it been employed? I read several "conspiracy theories" that I didn't really buy into about the money and the big corporations hiding the research. (scratches head)\

Also, you don't have to have only one pole, it doesn't really matter. You just angle them so that the opposite pole is out of the way. But you can always cut them in a machine shop can you not?

[Things]

The problem is, magnets can't only have 1 pole. The other pole has to be somewhere.

[Pianoman]

Why can't you cut them in half? Do they lose their repulsion force? I'm curious because I've never tried. Again though, if thats not possible, you can just angle them so that they work for the purpose of spinning the wheel, the only reason for cutting them would be to reduce the number of magnets you have to buy for the experiment.

[taggalucci]

Why can't you cut them in half?

You can cut them in half. You'll just end up with 2 smaller magnets each with a North and South pole.

You can't have one pole without the other.

I also suspect that during the rotation there are sweet spots for repulsion as well as an equal number of bad spots for attaction. I believe at best you could get the device to balance between these states, but having more repulsion than attraction, without adding extra energy, would be interesting (in the same way that creating a worm hole would be interesting)!

[-bart-]

This magnet has only one pole.

..as in..

this medal has only one side ?

[taggalucci]

This magnet has only one pole.

..as in..

this medal has only one side ?

...............

[norty303]

Ok, so assuming I've understood what you're proposing correctly, here's a few issues I can see.

The fundamental idea seems to be that as each magnet come sup to the fixed one, it is repelled and thus continues to spin the wheel in the current direction.

The problem is that as each magnet approaches the fixed one it will start to be repelled in the opposite direction, thus slowing the wheel down.
Now assuming it has enough momentum to not stop it will pass the fixed magnet and be repelled, thus speeding up again.

At this point you have a theoretical perpetual motion machine - however as soon as you take into account friction effects at the wheel hub, you effectively have a machine that will eventually stop and hover between 2 magnets on the wheel.

Now if you want to generate energy (such as via a dynamo attached to the wheel) you massively increase those friction effects and it'll probably stop almost instantly.

Now, if you could introduce some sort of shield that 'masks' the approaching magnet on the wheel from the fixed magnet, you could have a wheel that only pushes in one direction - I'm no scientist or enginer so I have no idea if 'anti magnet' materials exist and how effective they are at blocking magnetic fields.

[mophead]

IIRC, Pat (Laserman532) has done a little research on this. Maybe he will chime in.

My daddy always told me there was no such thing as a free lunch. I suppose the laws of physics say the same thing.

[Things]

Friction is always the bitch with these machines, even magnetic bearings still have air resistance to deal with. That and you have to somehow connect a generator.

Magnet bearings in a vacuum could be interesting, however you still have the issue of the generator. Even if you could have a magnet bearing based generator, the eddy currents in the generator windings would act to slow your device down.

[dar303]

I never expected PL to be such nice guys in respect to this topic!
I'll give it another day so that the guys on the other side of the planet can have their say...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

[Pianoman]

Norty, I like the point you made about the repulsion that would slow down the wheel as it approached the fixed magnet. I considered this, but it seems as though, after giving the wheel the initial push to start, it's inertia would overcome the resistance to push it over the threshold and continue pushing it forward. Friction is a pain, but I still feel like this is worth a try if not just for the sake of improving my DIY project skills. Can anyone tell me how to attach a picture from my computer to a post? I have a simple sketch of the concept and my design I made in paint. Thanks for the input, it's good stuff. Remember I'm just a college student, so I'm not offended when I'm told "YOUR WRONG", or "IT WONT WORK." Learning is half the fun!


I also just finished reading this: http://www.nuscam.com/perendev.htm
which states that such devices can work, but the problem is the magnets "maximum energy product" which is the amount of work the magnet can do before its level of magnetism drops to the point its no longer interacting with surrounding objects. An interesting article, seems that it was written by someone thats had a lot of experience with such devices.

Jonathan

[Laserman532]

IIRC, Pat (Laserman532) has done a little research on this. Maybe he will chime in.

My daddy always told me there was no such thing as a free lunch. I suppose the laws of physics say the same thing.

more research than I care to admit...but "I" was gonna be the one that shatters the second law of themodynamics. I put years into it.

My controversial video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgsWh-O3RU0 which has over 700,000 views on youtube was a scale model of the perendev magnet motor in which i tried to replicate. My video is controversial because i only closed one of the stators but when i closed both stators, king knog couldnt move the rotor it was locked up by the magnetic field.

My goal was to build a miniature version to power and recharge sailboat batteries (fail...when solar panels can do it much more efficiently). Bottom line is a magnetic field is NOT stored energy that can be extracted. There have been prototypes that "appear" to work but they ALL wind down, not to mention what happens when you put a load on them.

There are thousands of people working on "over unity" devices and there is promise in some areas, however no viable alternative yet. There are 10s of thousands of hoaxes.

Dont give up the dream, I just keep in mind hundreds of people laughing at the wright brothers in that vacant field.

EDIT- Perendev design is a total scam

[Laserman532]

Ok, so assuming I've understood what you're proposing correctly, here's a few issues I can see.

The fundamental idea seems to be that as each magnet come sup to the fixed one, it is repelled and thus continues to spin the wheel in the current direction.

The problem is that as each magnet approaches the fixed one it will start to be repelled in the opposite direction, thus slowing the wheel down.
Now assuming it has enough momentum to not stop it will pass the fixed magnet and be repelled, thus speeding up again.

At this point you have a theoretical perpetual motion machine - however as soon as you take into account friction effects at the wheel hub, you effectively have a machine that will eventually stop and hover between 2 magnets on the wheel.

Now if you want to generate energy (such as via a dynamo attached to the wheel) you massively increase those friction effects and it'll probably stop almost instantly.

Now, if you could introduce some sort of shield that 'masks' the approaching magnet on the wheel from the fixed magnet, you could have a wheel that only pushes in one direction - I'm no scientist or enginer so I have no idea if 'anti magnet' materials exist and how effective they are at blocking magnetic fields.

you may be no scientist or engineer but you pegged the "problems" precisely. They do install shields to reduce the interference of the approaching gate, however...the interference is still there, and yes...all magnet motors will be stopped at the gate once friction is introduced.

[drlava]

Jonathan, a big problem I see with those working on these devices is a misunderstanding of the definitions of force, energy, power, work, and potential energy. Magnets in and of themselves do not contain energy that can be extracted, they emit a field which can generate a force when another interacting object such as another magnet is brought within the detectable range of the field. When you force two North sides of a pair of magnets together, you expend energy via the work to push them together, that energy is stored as potential energy (the magnetic force trying to push the magnets apart and the distance over which that force has measurable influence). Given a perfectly frictionless environment and loss-less magnetic cores, a magnet that is brought into close repelling proximity to another will be repelled and gain only the energy that was put into getting it close in the first place. In a real-world scenario, there are significant losses involved, you'd be better off just spinning a disk in outer space with no magnets.. it would spin much longer. Give the thing any load whatsoever like attaching a generator and it will stop very quickly because there is no free energy to be extracted, only the energy that you give it initially.

Things to beware of:
Self-propelled magnet 'motors' of any kind
Self charging battery type circuits
Anything that claims to tap 'zero point energy' or 'vacuum flux energy'
Over-unity measurements from a device that cannot sustain a load, or itself for a very long period of time

Now, if you find it all fun, feel free to continue having fun and maybe it won't be a waste of your time and you'll pick up some assembly skills along the way, but don't expect anything more.

[norty303]

They do install shields to reduce the interference of the approaching gate, however...the interference is still there, and yes...all magnet motors will be stopped at the gate once friction is introduced.

Even as I was writing this I was intrigued enough to want to try a prototype.

The thing with the approaching magnet is that you don't actually have to cancel it out entirely - just take away enough of the repulsion effect on the approach, so that the difference in repulsion between the approach and receeding phase is greater than the total resistance (air, hub bearings, etc). I do think you could probably build a wheel with magnets on it that spins on it's own - but I don't think you could get it to drive anything worthwhile without stepping over the critical boundary where total resistances are greater than the difference in 'push' on approach/receeding phase.

[drlava]

Magnetic field 'lines' are all in a loop with a beginning and end inside the magnet. You can shield parts of the field, but it will always be a loop, so without warping spacetime you won't be able to jump to a high field strength zone without first expending the same potential energy of being in that location to get there. Shielding = no gain.

What I consistently see with these devices that that an inventor conceives of a device sufficiently complex as to be past the point where his intuition fails him, builds it, and when it doesn't work he blames it on the bearings or some detail or in some way turns it into a hoax. This results in some brilliant and beautiful designs, but they all slow down and stop.

[Laserman532]

The only free energy derived by building a magnet motor, is the benefit that the magnet motor receives through your efforts.

[Laserman532]

Why can't you cut them in half? Do they lose their repulsion force? I'm curious because I've never tried. Again though, if thats not possible, you can just angle them so that they work for the purpose of spinning the wheel, the only reason for cutting them would be to reduce the number of magnets you have to buy for the experiment.

Slice a loaf of bread as thin as you want...there will always be two sides

if you want to impress people build one of these (this is also my video) It really impresses chicks which would be good for a college student.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2CSV1ibmwc

[mophead]

So, if you have one of the contraptions you built, laserman.......

Once you give it a twist--how long does it turn?

[Laserman532]

So, if you have one of the contraptions you built, laserman.......

Once you give it a twist--how long does it turn?

i used skateboard bearings with exact machining on all parts all other materials were non conductive and precision laser cut from plexiglas . There were 3 levels of 18 ND magnets around the perimeter which provided excellent centrifugal force, i only ever spun it up by hand and it would spin for less than about 40 seconds. Friction is your basic problem in these designs.

I will try to attach a top view, but it was three levels with each rotor staggered by the right amount. Oh well i cant attach a word doc but if anyone wants the design, I will email a corel x13 version if you want it. Or if someone can tell me how to attach the drawing i will.

[Robin]

Sounds like a job for the Turbo Encabulator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4

[mixedgas]

Perendev took the South African Goverment for 7 Million US dollars before he fled. That is why he has such high credibility with the kooks. He received multiple payments over time, each time conning them out of more. In other words, the fringe community believes they paid him to go away. In reality, he told them pay more or he'd admit he was a fraud etc.

More fraudulent types picked up on what Perendev did and perpetuate the myth for fleecing those who do not study thermodynamics, or hire decent engineers to evaluate the examples provided.

Steve