Zero Point Energy, Perpetual motion is possible

**Pianoman** · 08-26-2010, 16:31

Thanks for shedding some light on the situation laserman! Well done on your design, it looks cool/ great whether it works or not

. After seeing your first hand experience and doing further reading online, I realize that such a device(that actually works) is not likely to be invented by a college student. however I was planning on buying a set of neodymium magnets from Unitednuclear anyway, so I'll still probably dabble with the wheel idea, something like this perhaps :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoiReuIlqMI

I'm definitely going to build a homopolar motor, looks fun and easy like you said. I've already thought up some cool ideas for a multi axis device running on a slightly larger battery

perhaps our galaxy with orbiting planets

? Thanks again for the feedback guys, I knew that I could get relevant well versed information if I asked on the forum

.

Jonathan

**mixedgas** · 08-26-2010, 17:33

http://pesn.com/2010/04/24/9501640_M..._embezzlement/

Some body should bust him for the HUGE waste of time and internet electrons he has created.

Steve

**instinct** · 08-27-2010, 02:37

Originally Posted by Laserman532

Slice a loaf of bread as thin as you want...there will always be two sides

if you want to impress people build one of these (this is also my video) It really impresses chicks which would be good for a college student.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2CSV1ibmwc

Ok, I've been slicing all day.. My bread is now 1 atom thick.. I can't cut it anymore with this butter knife!

**Zoof** · 08-27-2010, 03:45

and Andrew hits the nail on the head!

Originally Posted by drlava

Jonathan, a big problem I see with those working on these devices is a misunderstanding of the definitions of force, energy, power, work, and potential energy. ...

edit: Hi Jonathan, it is good to have that dream and it can be a real motivator to study. But beware that thousands of people have tried to find a loop hole in physics. If it is there you will not find it based on elementary physics or by chance. But study and work on it, and if you do not beat the laws of physics (my bet) you may become someone with a real invention that will be remembered (for the right reasons).
Interestingly Albert E. worked in a patent office, proving people wrong who came with `inventions' that somehow violated the laws of physics - so playing with these ideas and proving yourself wrong may in fact be a way to hone your genius...

p.s. anyone familiar with a little toy called a levitron?

**Laserman532** · 08-27-2010, 11:12

Originally Posted by Zoof

and Andrew hits the nail on the head!

edit: Hi Jonathan, it is good to have that dream and it can be a real motivator to study. But beware that thousands of people have tried to find a loop hole in physics. If it is there you will not find it based on elementary physics or by chance. But study and work on it, and if you do not beat the laws of physics (my bet) you may become someone with a real invention that will be remembered (for the right reasons).
Interestingly Albert E. worked in a patent office, proving people wrong who came with `inventions' that somehow violated the laws of physics - so playing with these ideas and proving yourself wrong may in fact be a way to hone your genius...

p.s. anyone familiar with a little toy called a levitron?

levitron...hehe...it slows down and fails too.........hmmmmmmmm

**catalanjo** · 08-28-2010, 02:20

Levitron is great.
Looks like magic and gets kids interested in how it works. Real Harry Potter stuff.

Reminds me of a box I built once for my daughter when she was a little kid.
Had a frame with a bicycle wheel being spun by a very quiet electric motor. hidden inside it.

You pushed it one way and fell over side ways. She really did want to see how it "worked".

Cheers

**Zoof** · 08-29-2010, 03:23

Originally Posted by Laserman532

levitron...hehe...it slows down and fails too.........hmmmmmmmm

Even when placed in a vacuum, apparently - but why, why, WHY ???????

**taggalucci** · 08-29-2010, 03:49

Originally Posted by Zoof

Even when placed in a vacuum, apparently - but why, why, WHY ???????

I'd hazard a guess it's because of the "drag" of the opposing magnetic fields.

**Laserman532** · 08-29-2010, 12:15

Originally Posted by taggalucci

I'd hazard a guess it's because of the "drag" of the opposing magnetic fields.

i would assume that some of the "drag" is or can be caused by air resistance. However, being that the magnetic field flux lines between the magnet base and spinning top interact with each other (that is what keeps it floating) still encounter the "gate" during rotation. This magnetic field gate is the death of all magnet motor, perpetual motion devices. You have to have just enough inertia to pass the attraction gate to get to the repel gate.

With all that said...the device is brilliant and who ever invented it...i hope they were paid well beyond their imagination.

**Stoney3K** · 08-29-2010, 16:42

Originally Posted by mophead

My daddy always told me there was no such thing as a free lunch.

Seriously? You're the son of Robert Heinlein?

On the 'free energy' side of things, I'd put more money on Polywell Fusion as devised by Robert Bussard:

http://www.fusor.net/files/EMC2_FusionToPost.pdf

At least he's got calculations showing that this is not FREE energy, but just an efficient way of achieving D-D and p-B11 fusion. It's a variation on the Farnsworth fusor, and Bussard's company is currently working under a US Navy grant. And as far as I know, they don't give those to just anyone...

**Zoof** · 08-30-2010, 02:42

Originally Posted by Laserman532

i would assume that some of the "drag" is or can be caused by air resistance. However, being that the magnetic field flux lines between the magnet base and spinning top interact with each other (that is what keeps it floating) still encounter the "gate" during rotation. This magnetic field gate is the death of all magnet motor, perpetual motion devices. You have to have just enough inertia to pass the attraction gate to get to the repel gate.

what you describe should be energy conservative, thus as long at the rotor has enough momentum to get through the gates, it will keep turning without losing energy due to it.
The electromagnetic inductance (current) that will take place in conducting part in a varying magnetic field will cause an additional loss of energy.
A levitron in pure vacuum and in super conducting state ( at 0 K ??) would turn for ever - I suppose.

**Stoney3K** · 08-30-2010, 05:08

Originally Posted by Zoof

A levitron in pure vacuum and in super conducting state ( at 0 K ??) would turn for ever - I suppose.

In theory, it would. If you ever saw the science experiment of a superconducting disc hovering over a set of magnets -- that's the exact same principle. Lenz' Law states that the eddy currents created in the disc oppose the changes in the external magnetic field, making it float.

In the real world, currents flow through metal, which will heat up as a result of the eddy currents, creating losses and slowing everything down. (This is put to good use in ED brakes on trains.) However, a superconductor has the property of conducting current with zero losses, so it can stay airborne forever. The only resistance it will face is air drag.

However, as we all know, even a pure vacuum does not exist (space has background particles), and it would only make an already existing motion continue on its path, never add any _new_ energy (e.g. have net energy gain).

**DanBarlow** · 08-30-2010, 11:38

Originally Posted by Stoney3K

In theory, it would.

Actually not for the Levitron, it is rotating so it is sending out very low frequency radio waves and thus losing energy even if there were no other matter in the universe.

Read about pulsars for the stellar equivalent, astronomers can tell their age by how much they've slowed down.

**Laserman532** · 08-30-2010, 11:45

Originally Posted by Stoney3K

In theory, it would. If you ever saw the science experiment of a superconducting disc hovering over a set of magnets -- that's the exact same principle. Lenz' Law states that the eddy currents created in the disc oppose the changes in the external magnetic field, making it float.

In the real world, currents flow through metal, which will heat up as a result of the eddy currents, creating losses and slowing everything down. (This is put to good use in ED brakes on trains.) However, a superconductor has the property of conducting current with zero losses, so it can stay airborne forever. The only resistance it will face is air drag.

However, as we all know, even a pure vacuum does not exist (space has background particles), and it would only make an already existing motion continue on its path, never add any _new_ energy (e.g. have net energy gain).

please keep in mind that we are talking "free energy" or "zero point" energy or "over unity devices" So we are talking that the amount of energy that is produced is more than the amount of energy put in. A superconductor has zero losses, but if the superconductor was required to produce the energy to make the liquid nitrogen it would fail immediately.

In the levitron (which is probably the most efficient "perpetual motion like" machine) would benefit greatly if one could develop "a shield" that would minimize the repel force of the incoming gate, which would make the repel force of the outgoing gate stronger thus allowing longer spinning times. (if that makes any sense) OBTW- the perendev design states that they use rotor shielding on the magnets for this precise reason. The moment all of these devices are put under a load, they fail, therefore there ability to do 'work" simply looses luster immediately.

**Zoof** · 08-30-2010, 15:03

once again, the repel force and other magnetic forces, as such, do not _consume_ energy.
Reducing the described gate effect by shielding allows the rotor to spin longer because the minimal speed at which it will still turn is lower, thus as it slows down gradually it can keep going longer before it has reached the speed at which the rotor does not have the momentum to push through the `gate' and stops.

BTW, the levitron does not have those `gates' that are formed by the alternating polarity of magnets placed side by side.
However it does wobble, which induced eddy currents and losses.

The radio waves is an interesting one !

**Laserman532** · 08-30-2010, 16:42

Originally Posted by Zoof

once again, the repel force and other magnetic forces, as such, do not _consume_ energy.
Reducing the described gate effect by shielding allows the rotor to spin longer because the minimal speed at which it will still turn is lower, thus as it slows down gradually it can keep going longer before it has reached the speed at which the rotor does not have the momentum to push through the `gate' and stops.

BTW, the levitron does not have those `gates' that are formed by the alternating polarity of magnets placed side by side.
However it does wobble, which induced eddy currents and losses.

The radio waves is an interesting one !

we are starting to split hairs on the internet

I never stated that energy was consumed because in a magnetic field there is no energy that may be consumed. However, the field will decay over time if repeatedly impacted by opposing field. Semantics...

anyway...back to the drawing board

the levitron is obviously affected by alternating gates because the top will not stay up unless spinning (could elaborate further but why)..IMHO

**Zoof** · 08-31-2010, 15:20

Originally Posted by Laserman532

the levitron is obviously affected by alternating gates because the top will not stay up unless spinning (could elaborate further but why)..IMHO

I will tell you why: because you are wrong and you will only see it if you elaborate. Look up the configuration of the magnets in Levitron and you will see.

Oh, and about semantics, by following you reasoning as quoted: alternating gates would be the ONLY way to stabilize the top... wrong again.

Two posts ago you were stating -reasons for design- in a machine that does not work as designed (endless motion / free energy) - you might want to check your reasoning there again :-)

Anyway I'm just having fun shooting at you, you can believe what you want (same goes for anyone who cares to read this) but defend yourself if you care... :-p

cheers!

**Laserman532** · 08-31-2010, 15:27

ZOOF...HAHA...are you really my wife in disguise???

She does the same thing to me....I have to ask her a million questions to "find out what it is...by finding out what it isnt"

In stead of just poo pooing others statements...

EXPLAIN THE MOTHER FUCKER!!!

**Zoof** · 08-31-2010, 15:34

Well laserman, you just came up with the MOTHER OF ALL INSULTS so here it goes, for anyone who is too busy on the forums to look it up themselves (sure your wife can come up with a similar argument).

Why repeat when someone else has really taken the time to explain:
http://physik.uibk.ac.at/hephy/maturanten/levitron/
I'm not here to explain, I'm just here to inspire and be inspired.

have fun reading ! and say hi to the mrs.

p.s. every heard of gyroscopes?

**Laserman532** · 08-31-2010, 15:45

thank you dear

back on topic...do magnet motors work?

mister inspiration

**Zoof** · 08-31-2010, 15:50

Originally Posted by Laserman532

thank you dear

Now I feel just so dirty...

But in line with female attitude: you were wrong, I proved it and made you admit it

**Laserman532** · 08-31-2010, 15:55

ZOOF-1
LASERMAN-0

Do magnet motors work mr. inspiration?

EDIT...are you busy using the internets...i mean unless you are too busy or something

i mean, im sure it has already been explained somewhere hehe

**Pianoman** · 08-31-2010, 16:35

...This reminds me, I'm glad i'm not married yet

.

You bring up some interesting points. It really does make sense that you can't create energy "for free". If there were just some way to shield the magnetic field, conceivably you could accomplish this seemingly impossible task. Maybe in my life time? I hope???

Science is making great leaps, you never know!

**Laserman532** · 08-31-2010, 16:42

Originally Posted by Zoof

Even when placed in a vacuum, apparently - but why, why, WHY ???????

zoof - A levitron in pure vacuum and in super conducting state ( at 0 K ??) would turn for ever - I suppose.

in a "perfect vacuum" would the gyroscopic effects of the spinning top tend to move the top away from the base or would the mass of the base have enough gravitational effects to hold them in proper relation to each other....uninspired minds want to know

OMG...levitrons in space, we are really reaching here

**danielbriggs** · 08-31-2010, 19:59

OMG!
People; please take a massive "step-the-fuck-back" for a moment, and stop thinking too hard.
I've had the solution sitting on my shelf, sipping away, for YEARS!
YEARS I tell ya!

TA-DAH!!

Fuelled by water and one hell of a thirst...!

Each drinking bird produces exactly 1 What*
(*1 What = every person who comes in my room and asks "What is it, and how!?" whom I then have to explain how it works to)

So take fields of drinking birds, lined up in rows for miles upon miles, powering iPod's, tea kettles and hairdryers up and down the country.

Pat, how many would I need to hook up to power a SP 168?

Energy problem solved;
Next please!

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