Topic for Discussion / Micro-Poll...

[laser_freak]

I think that the people who benefit most from the freely available information here are often the people who could not afford $10 a month.

[soforene]

What does Admin say?

[Banthai]

I started reading this thread with the atitude that it should remain free .... and after reading about 10 posts i have changed my mind to a small subscription fee should be imposed ...
i like the idea that $12 for a years sub payable by paypal etc
It would certainly stop the "tinbox laser co in Guangdong" spamming the forums
it would also stop the "whats the password for the .... so i can download all the frames"
$12 a year is afordable ... and would help run this place
would it shrink the community ... most likely ... yes
the only negative thing for Robert is that this place becomes more of a business ... and he then has to follow the regulations involved for a commercial website he could be open to taxation, and security regarding data and details held on members, also credit card transactions would be required if using something other than Poopal

i do like the idea of merchandise ... just a simple range would be good say ... Tshirt.. Mug.. mousemat... pen ... Dildo

all the best

Karl

oh did i mention that i donate $10 a month ... why dont you.....

[no-esc]

I have been making a monthly contribution and will continue to do so. I don't mind helping out.

I do like the idea of merch with PL logos etc. I would like that and would pay more for it.

Lenny

PS I am working on some alum honeycomb optical plates with the nice thick alum honeycomb I brought to selem will keep you all updated on that later.

[buffo]

I've been rather busy lately, both at work and at home, which is why I haven't been posting on here as often. Nonetheless, I've been following this thread, and thus far no one has addressed the white elephant in the room. So allow me to be the bad guy who says what needs to be said:

Rob has been unemployed for many years now, and despite everyone's wishes to the contrary, PL has not generated enough income for him to live on. This is the real issue at hand.

Photonlexicon certainly has expenses that are required to maintain the site (hosting fees and bandwidth charges). And on top of that, it does seem fair that Robert receive at least some compensation for the extra work he does to maintain all of the back-end stuff. But there is no way that PL will ever be profitable enough that Rob can earn his living exclusively off the proceeds from this website. This is a reality that we all must admit up front, including Rob.

In the past several years I've seen the revenue stream from PL grow from essentially nothing, to a few donations per year, to the original "donate" button that was used a bit more often, to the monthly subscription system we have in place today. A quick count of the number of members with blue highlights suggests that PL generates around $400 per month in revenue. (Note that this estimate is on the low side, since it ignores corporate members who pay more than $10 per month. Nevertheless, $400 is a nice round number that is easy to deal with.)

Now, while this amount may be more than enough to cover the hosting and bandwidth fees (with a little left over for Rob as well), it's immediately clear that this is nowhere near enough revenue for a person to live off of. Even a minimum-wage job pays 3 times this amount monthly, and I don't know anyone who consideres minimum wage to be enough to live off of.

The other issue is the fact that PL is unlikely to ever generate much more income that it does right now, no matter what new subscription system is put into place. The community is just too small.

I have been a supporter of PL (and Rob) for many years now, and I will continue to do so. But I have also been keenly aware of Robert's unfortunate financial situation for several years, and I have spoken about these issues with him in private several times. DLSI_Jon and I have also had many discussions about this, especially after Rob moved to California. I had high hopes that a change of scenery would bring new opportunities (and hopefully, some new motivation as well). Alas, it seems things have not turned out that way.

As a means of helping Rob, I've been working with DZ and Daedal on a plan to market a new PL-branded diode driver. It is our hope that once the prototype is proved and the initial production run starts (paid for with donated funds from the three of us), Robert can take over the project and sell the drivers on the forum to generate some extra cash for himself. I expect this will come to fruition sometime early next year. But even so, it's not going to generate a lot of money - maybe a few hundred bucks a month at most. And this is the absolute best case.

So we're still back to the same problem that we started from, which is that Rob needs more income to live off of. And I think that the subscription system is absolutely the wrong place to look for a solution to this problem.

I need to point out that while I don't have a problem with the current subscription system, I am also open to any of the alternatives proposed above. As I said, I'll continue to support the forums no matter what, even if it means paying more than $120 per year (not counting proceeds from SELEM).

But everyone needs to face the reality that no matter WHAT is done to the subscription system, it is never going to be enough for Rob to live on. Until we all admit this, we're just deluding ourselves. Once we've accepted this fact, I think it will be easier to talk about what sort of subscription system is right for the forum.

Sorry if this post sounds like I'm trying to drag Rob through the dirt. I'm not. Several senior members have known about this for quite some time, and despite our best efforts, none of us have managed to come up with a solution. (You could argue that it's none of our business, but that would mean ignorning a friend in need.)

Adam

[dsli_jon]

Hi LF -

I think that the people who benefit most from the freely available information here are often the people who could not afford $10 a month.

Umm, I would like to kindly-suggest that you go back and re-read the 'proposal' again - I'm suggesting a $1.00 - not $10.00 - min., for 'Full Access Membership' to just the select-'advanced-discussion / info'-sections of PL... (See 'Post #23'...)

'Free Membership' would-still be available to anyone / everyone that wants it - even 'Guests' could see it! (..albeit, read-only as-now..) - and that 'Free Member' would get Free, full-participation Access to all these fine-sections:

- PL Laser Safety / Regs-info Wiki: All-access / Free...
- Hologeekery: All-access / Free...
- Laser FAQs: All-Access / Free - ..and, I recently found-out (iirc) it's being hosted-here.. further food for thought as-to PL's 'value'...
- News and Other Discussion: The *entire* forum / all subs - including the hugely-popular / often-helpful 'Lounge' - All-Access / Free...
- Lasers, All Kinds: All-access / Free (tbd ??)
- Light Sources, Other than Laser: All-access / Free...
- Product, Company, Sale, and Trade: Entire forum / all subs, All-access / Free.. and, probably most-valuably, publically / search-engine visible, etc...

...So, that means, this-'type' of great-interaction / site-value, ie: http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...aser-and-help! ..would *still* be Free, since that person could join PL as a 'Free Member', and post his questions / get his answers in the Lounge...

...Then, perhaps after receiving-such help / good-advice - for Free - maybe he says '..ya know, PL is awesome, I'm gonna have one less $12. drink at the Bar tonight, and sign-up for for the 'Full' Membership... - and *whammo* - Now, he gets even-more 'value' from PL, and - he gives something truly-helpful back... that's the essence of this proposal... A 'baseline-support' is guaranteed, not totally 'at-whim', like-now, and We, as The PL Community', can further-vote / determine what Forums we choose to be for 'Paid-Members Only' (ie: Laser artwork, etc...) ..make more sense?

---

It would certainly stop the "tinbox laser co in Guangdong" spamming the forums...
it would also stop the "whats the password for the .... so i can download all the frames"
$12 a year is afordable ...

Yep, methinks the same...

the only negative thing for Robert is that this place becomes more of a business ... he could be open to taxation

Same-consideration applies to income from Advertisers, Merch, etc... And, yes, he'll still have to 'file', in any-case, but, his tax 'liability' will only be higher, if he surpasses the minimum-amount to-owe tax, after all his hard-expenses... I think he'd prolly be ok... As Adam keenly points-out, this will never-likely be a 'cash-cow' - but, that's not the 'goal' of this Proposal - it's to more about ensuring more of a 'balance', for Admin's efforts, and, to ensure 'longevity' for PL-support..

i do like the idea of merchandise ...Tshirt.. Mug.. mousemat... pen ... D...

Ahahahaha! - Yes, I can envision the 'PL Jackrabbit' now, LOL! ...but, in all-seriousness, the more I think about Merch, it is a fantastic-idea, but I still see that as a 'supplemental-solution', not as a 'foundational / baseline-guarantee' solution, because, it is still-subject to the 'whims' of people buying - like the current 'subscription'-model - Some do - some don't... some will, some won't = no 'guarantee' for Ops-cost, and Admin / his time-effort...

..if-anything, the 'Paid-Advertiser-corral' idea has more potential traction as a 'guaranteed' / stable-baseline, than Merch... Thus, this whole Topic for Discussion / Poll, etc...

cheers, Karl...
---

Adam, I wanna reply to your comments, separately... But, please consider the above, too...
j

[buffo]

I hear what you're saying Jon. And I understand the motivation as well. My point though is that all this discussion (not to mention the work it would take to implement) isn't going to solve the underlying problem.

I guess what I'm saying is that when you're having a heart attack, the fact that you also have a broken arm is irrelevent. Rob's financial situation is rapidly approaching heart-attach severity. Re-vamping the subscription system is akin to setting the broken arm. It does nothing to stop the heart attack.

Adam

[dsli_jon]

hey Adam -

Thanks for making the time to weigh-in... Some counter-points / food-for-thought:

...allow me to be the bad guy who says what needs to be said...This is the real issue at hand.

Sorry - have to disagree, already, here - Remember, I am *not* serving as 'Robs' puppet', here - this is not a 'sekret message from Admin' this is me, observing that: A) Admin puts *way* more into maintaining this place than he gets out of it - remember - he's not a 'laserist'...

...B) There are simply too-many 'freeloaders', imo - and the current 'subscription-model' foments that - Many take, and don't give.. even *some* are making quite a bit of $$ / have-gained quite a bit of knowledge off PL - and don't give-back, at least not financially... Even Steve Roberts, who, inarguably, is one of the top 'intellectual / info-only contributors', here, and even He would be more than-glad to pitch-in $12. / yr.

...C) The current subscription-model, does-nothing to address a 'long-term guaranteed support-base' for PL / it's Admin(s)... What happens when Rob *does* get a full-time job, and, ie: PL 'goes down' at 3pm, and he works till 10pm or 12am? He testifies that when PL goes-down, people are up his ss about it, till fixed...no-matter if it's 3pm or 3am.. Yes, to Frank's quip - that's 'his choice / consequences' - but, like I said - how, exactly, does that lessen the value of the fact that he does fix it / keep us going, practically 'on-demand'?? ...not something he'll likely be able to be so-attentive-to, at some-job, on his 'Droid', eh?

..In fact, the fact that people do conduct a healthy amount of business via this site, could-potentially increase his 'liability', if he were to take a 'less-active' role - ie: Say he get's the job at Walmart or whatever - he's working a 8-10 or more hrs shift - PL goes down - now, he's got someone over on the other side of the planet *angry* with him / threatening him, cause the "..site is down!!" and they 'can't conduct their business / contact a supplier via PM', etc - yeah, maybe that's 'far-fetched'....but not all that much.

'Delegate', you say? Sure, but, a) Have you ever *seen* the config-page for PL? It makes the 'DJAllen-thread' look like Sesame Street -
But, yeah - he could teach that / someone could learn... But, b) HE is uniquely-qualified to maintain PL, the way we all like it - *because He is who He is / his 'philosphies' / the way he handles-things IS unique*, and putting someone 'in his seat' to just up and make best-decisions for the PL-community is far easier said than done...

Point-is - Your point is valid. He does need more gainful work.. Don't we all? BUT, I am NOT proposing a 'bailout'... This is more about - again - a) Making PL more-fair for Admin, B) establishing the foundation for a 'guaranteed-baseline of support'-Model - Now, and for the future... C) - Think, too, that IF there was more of a stable, guaranteed 'baseline' - Admin might be able to *hire* out some good reliable help, as-needed?? I mean, sure - many-say 'Oh, I'll do it, I'll do it!!' - yet, we still have many that take / make $ off-of PL - and yet do not subscribe... So, I'm not exactly 'seeing the long line of Elves'...

A quick count of the number of members with blue highlights suggests that PL generates around $400 per month in revenue. (Note that this estimate is on the low side, since it ignores corporate members who pay more than $10 per month.

Something else I found-out that I doubt you knew - Not everyone that is 'Blue' - is actually paying. Apparently, vBull has no-way to 'verify' that a 'subscriber' is actually sending the $$... So, yes - there are some 'false Blues'.. Dunno how many, I didn't press for 'who'. Also there is currently only One 'corporate sponsor' that does-pay more than the $10. / mo. (IIRC..)

..Perhaps there are others, that just give a 'lump sum' / support in 'other ways' - ie: myself - I have actually not given Admin the '$10./mo.' since 2010, since I don't like the 'auto-drip' thing from PissPal, either... So, I sent in a 'lump-sum'... but, since about, oh, May/June of this year, I have been fielding an electric-bill increase of anywhere between +$150. / $200. mo. especially in the peak-mo's of A/C-useage... yet have-not - and WILL NOT, ask for a *dime* - I consider this to be 'my contribution' to PL, since the shop is unstaffed, otherwise, so this can be, at least in-part, directly-tied in, in my mind... Additionally, I have striven to give-back ~10% of every equipt-sale that we have made 'thru' PL - just gave ~$280. a couple-weeks back, and more, further back this year, and this is separate-from Sho-Tech work, as it comes-up / is appropriate... (West-coast shows, etc..)

...I AM NOT 'TOOTING MY HORN', I simply-mention this as an example that - Yes - there are 'other ways' that peeps support PL / Admin, besides the ones that are actual, paying 'Blues' - Ie: Franks' comment about his 'large chunk', and poor Badger's NaziPal-wrecked 'raffle' effort - etc, etc... BUT - these efforts are 'random / at-whim', and 'fluctuate' - nothing 'predictable'...

So - you may be right - Maybe this is all 'sufficient' and he's doing just fine and I am barking up the wrong-tree. But, from my-camp, I observe the guy putting in *way more* than he gets back from this place, and I (imho) submit it's too 'lopsided' - Thus this thread.

Again, I state FOR THE RECORD - THIS IS *NOT* ABOUT ME / DSLI / the 'electric-bill'!!!!! - And, FTR, I will NOT ASK Admin for a *dime*, even if he starts making $50K / mo. off this place, I WON'T!!! I know no one is 'accusing' that, I just wanna make that CRYSTAL CLEAR - any 'back-help' for DSLI comes in the form-of trying to 'sell some stuff', here, of-which, 10% goes-back to PL, anyway..

As a means of helping Rob

Awesome! I am sure that will help, at least somewhat... hopefully, a lot!! But, again - it does-not address my other 'points' about Helping quell-spammers, site-support longevity, etc, etc, since not everyone needs / will-buy those drivers, every month...

Several senior members have known about this for quite some time, and despite our best efforts, none of us have managed to come up with a solution.

Indeed, so - thus, this is my Proposal - the suggestion for how to generate a 'stable-baseline' - Anything else - PL Merch, Advertiser-Corral, SpecIndustries BRAINS-Drivers , 'special fundraisers', and/or people just graciously sending the Guy some $$ - is all just 'gravy'... And, too, hopefully in 2012, we'll get Laser*** back on it's feet, locally, and there can be an instant, paying job for Rob, apart-from Adminning-PL... but, nothing ever worth-doing, happens overnight, and we're *still* recouperating from the 2009 'fail', so, we'll see...

Thoughts?

ciao
j

[White-Light]

..and yet, I see that there are Zero-votes for the 'NO!.. I'd leave PL...'-sentiment... j

Maybe that's just because everyone on here loves Rob and no-one wants to appear mean by clicking this option.

I'm tending to agree with Adam on this. I think there should be a monthly subscription as there is now for those who can afford it and a one off payment button for those who can't but wish to make the occasional donation. As someone with no a lot of money myself I do emphasise with Rob' situation but I too don't think that PL is going to be sufficient to pay his way out of his problems.

A far more constructive thing would be if someone on PL in his area could actually offer him a job, even if it was only the occasional lending a hand scenario, it would at least generate more income than the site and at least give him some sense of worth. Surely someone in California has a laser company and could let Rob help out at the odd gig for cash in hand or with their web site etc.

[LaNeK779]

ok, more days passed, and only 28 voters

this is a film i have seen before. a vast community but too few care enough to speak their mind and even fewer would be willing to contribute with actions or work and even fewer than that would be willing to contribute "funds"

this is worrying (at least i see it as such), maybe there is not enough "critical mass"