How to spend $30,000

[vIQleS]

OK - So I've got my first laser, (Cheap asian POS).

I've got a copy of QS and a FB3, which I'm loving (although I can't get it working with the aforementioned POS yet. It may be faulty)

I'm looking to spend about NZ$1400 on the next one (700mW RGB) - local supplier with warranties etc...

The guy I'm working with wants us to get some good outdoor stuff too - he's looking at spending (maybe) up to NZ$30k.*

What are some good manufacturers? Anyone recommend kvant? Looking to get the most out of the money we've got too of course...

Anyone here able to build us something good?

What sort of power can we get? 1 unit or 2?


* xe.com says that's about US$24,076.58. USD sucking at the mo?

[gottaluvlasers]

Everyone would recommend KVANT. $25-$30K is a REAL LASER budget! this can definitely get you into some good RGB units in the 5+ Watt and some high powered greens (if you just went single color). If you went with a professional build, myself (CT. Lasers) Rob Stanley (Stanwax on here) and a few others (cant think too straight right now. LOOOOONG day...) all build quality, PROFESSIONAL systems.

If you have questions for myself or any of the other builders, feel free to shoot us a PM or ask here. None of us (as far as i know) are sales "snobs" and would be happy to help you with advice and steer you in the proper direction.

-Marc

[dave]

We could hook you up with a Kvant built unit at a good price. Or we could build something pretty serious for that kind of money.. Australia is very close to NZ last time I checked

[slicklasers]

We could also build you a Monster for your budget...

[Jem]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned RGB Lasersystems in Hungary.

http://www.rgblasersystem.com/

[White-Light]

Personally I'd reduce your outdoor budget by a couple of thousand dollars and get a quality indoor unit so you have quality all round.

1.6 W Kvant might suit you for indoors, or a custom build 1W or an RGB Laser systems unit as Jem says. All should be quality.

Off the shelf Chinese projectors in the main, don't tend to be very good.

Should also mention, Kvant is now doing some units with IP44 as standard and IP64 as an option. Not sure what others do waterproofing wise.

[Stoney3K]

25K USD, isn't that even a good budget for some serious OPSL mayhem?

[danielbriggs]

25K USD, isn't that even a good budget for some serious OPSL mayhem?

You'll squeeze just a single unit OPS + general projector gumph out of that.

[sbk]

Should also mention, Kvant is now doing some units with IP44 as standard and IP64 as an option. Not sure what others do waterproofing wise.

Swisslas do IP67 projectors, I saw one running inside a box of water at Frankfurt P&L

Otherwise I second with RGBLaserSystem (something like their Compact 12-15W model will fit your budget) or Kvant.

[dsli_jon]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned RGB Lasersystems in Hungary.

Heh... well I was just worn-through, last nite so... didn't quite get to posting, but... Yep.. they solidly get our ...

..So, Good vIQleS -

We've used both the Kv's and the Hungarian RGBs 'Compact'-line in our Pro-outdoor work, both for graphics and for aerials... now, since both the systems used more or less the same galvos (CT 6220s) they both do a similar-great job for graphics, in terms of 'speed', etc, because they're both on 'equal-planes', there...

..and, using fairly-similar diodes, for both Red and Blue, they're not too-far off in performance, though I will testify that the Kv's output, on both the Red and Blue-side, beam-quality wise, is a tad-bit 'sloppier' than the RGBs - they are tight, tight, tight... Green-wise, the Kv we've been using has an OPSL-green in it (..which is *not* 'standard', it was special-order...) but the RGB uses the 'new 'VCSEL' (say, 'vixel'..) green - which *is* standard on all new RGB-Compacts, and while not quite as 'fast' as an OPSL, they are *much* improved over 'standard' DPSS-greens, even 'hi-quality' units... The RGB-Compact's Green is tight, bright and fast... a good solid-performer..

Where (imo) the RGB solidly 'pulls-ahead' in the lane, is that w/O removing any covers - you are able to, on-site, 'tweek' / adjust your color-convergence, that is to say, 'merging' your 3 primary colors, to get better / cleaner mixes (Yellows, Oranges, Magentas, etc, etc..), which, does occasionally need to be done, especially-
outdoors, and even more-so when you've got severe ambient-temps (really-hot or really-cold..) to deal-with - Being able to simply stick an allen-key into a small, sealed-port, in-front, and safely-adjust your convergence, while-projecting a test-pattern, etc, is imo, as MasterCard famously-says, "Priceless"..

..I mean, what is the point of a 'weatherproofed-box', if, for example, you've got to 'disnude' the entire optical-cavity, by removing the cover-plate to adjust convergence? - how the heck are you going to do that in the rain? Ok, yeah, a 'tent' or tarp, etc, but what about dust / fog, or if it's raining-sideways, etc - point-is,
if you've got the remove the entire cover-plate to get at your convergence-controls, then an 'IP-rating' is kinda meaningless, and we all know that convergence DOES-drift... @rdžo$' claims can go take a crap... The RGB's are well-sealed, and the brilliant layout-design, not only makes such-onsite convergence-tweeks a *snap*, but it also results in better thermal-management ... That makes their units a solid, solid Win in our-book...

DSLI_C8_BmSht.JPG ..And the output ain't too-shabby.. ..ie: This -


...was a 730' throw, and only using B + G - no Red, (..so, only 2/3's power - bright, and tight..) The only reason this looks kinda 'blurry' is cause I had to 'zoom' quite a bit to get this to fill the frame, due to the distance, and, well.. it was kinda windy on the rooftop from-where we were projecting this, so... To the eye - even from 36-stories-below, with high-ambient street-lighting, the result was clean, bright, and highly-legible... a Win.. ..and Aerials / Beams? One word: AWESOME.

As far as 'buy vs build', well, I can certainly say that while there are some US-based 'builders' that do, indeed, do a good-job, Dave (LVP) and Co. are pretty-close by ya, which - for 'practical-reasons', certainly makes good sense...and they do very-nice CNC werk on their multi-watt cores, and solid-build werk on their Show-rigs... and their results, well... speak for themselves...

Anyhoo, just some 'testimony from the field', fwiw... Hope this was helpful...
cheers..
j

[planters]

Jon,
Nice projection. Elegant! Where is this and how long is the set up scheduled for? What are you projecting onto and how did you get it up there? What kind of feed back have you gotten, etc?

[White-Light]

Swisslas do IP67 projectors, I saw one running inside a box of water at Frankfurt P&L

Aren't Swisslas now owned by Laserworld?

In which case I give them a wide berth personally given the problems reported by users on here in the past with LW units.

[dsli_jon]

Where is this and how long is the set up scheduled for? What are you projecting onto and how did you get it up there?

Well, out of 'respect for the Op'.. I'll just quickly-summarize: Was a one-night shoot, for a Client that was looking to dynamically 'mock-up' various sizes/ placements of their Corporate-logo, here, before spending, ya know, $4-5 M - per side - for sign-construction / installation, along-with some interior LED-illumination, etc... Smart-way to have done it, since, with the ambient street-lighting 36-stories below, (..and, projecting on glass..) don't think video would have 'popped' as-much... kinda hard to 'out-contrast' lasers... The glass-windows behind the 'target' building were back-painted with standard latex-paint (for easy removal, later.. ) for better visibility, (..vs the glass-alone, of course..) and we were projecting from a 35-story building, over 700' away (..on this side..)

..But, I posted for the benefit of the Op, here, as it is some 'fine testimony', imo, as-to RGB's beam-quality - and having those 'external-convergence controls' - to me - was 'priceless', for this - CORRECTION: 715'-throw, not having to 'open the optical-cavity' to spank the convergence, in the cold / wind / light-rain, etc... I only hope this will have-been helpful-info / real-world data, for Sir vIQleS..

Aren't Swisslas now owned by..

I believe-so... ..and even 'sadder' is that, iirc, 'RTi' sold-out, too.. those were some dang sexy, tight / well-designed boxes.. beautiful interfaces, watertight, OPSL-options.. oi.. brilliant-engineering... only to fall into the hands of the hack-factory..

cheers..
j

[vIQleS]

Brilliant- thanks all. I love learning new things and that seems to pretty much be a given every time I log in here... :-D

Personally I'd reduce your outdoor budget by a couple of thousand dollars and get a quality indoor unit so you have quality all round.

This money is coming from the pyro guy I work with - he wants to buy laser/s, software, laptop etc and keep it at his warehouse. I'm also trying to buy some stuff for myself so that I've got gear on-hand ready to go without having to track him down and get access to everything. My budget is not quite so impressive - I'm looking at about 6 months to save up for this next purchase :-D

The first unit i brought from eccv (rasha). Sight-unseen - I just brought the cheapest one... The one I'm looking at now is from a local supplier - I've seen it and it comes with guarantee etc...

Did you hang something behind the windows to project onto? Or was there something there already?

[vIQleS]

OK - so from what I'm reading so far, everyone likes RGB and Kvant is good quality too...

Next thing is what do I buy?

Would it make more sense to get 2 at a lower power rather than just one big one (for versatility)?

What can I afford - 12-15W for a single? To get 2 - is 6-10W reasonable? Good enough for outdoor?

Should I be budgeting to get safety gear as well? Goggles? Meters? What sort?

(Actual budget might be a bit lower - we'll need to buy a laptop, software, dongles, safety gear etc as well... say US20,000)

[vIQleS]

Oh - and data transmitting options...

Is there any such thing as ILDA over IP? Wireless options? How long a cable run can you do with the DB25?

How much power will a big unit need - standard 220v OK?

[colouredmirrorball]

You can run an ILDA cable as long as you want but the longer the cable the higher the signal loss as it's an analog signal. More experienced guys can tell you what would be the limit. There are some wireless options but they aren't reliable enough for big events and such.
But there are some DACs that work with ethernet. Right now I can think of the Etherdream and QM2000.net, and Fiesta.net sounds like it works over ethernet too.

And as long as you aren't into big old fancy gas lasers or *really* bright diodes it should run over 220 V

[Aage]

Aren't Swisslas now owned by Laserworld?

In which case I give them a wide berth personally given the problems reported by users on here in the past with LW units.

Do Laserworld work with Kvant to, or use their design?? http://www.laserworld.com/en/purelig...gb-detail.html
Kvant 19W http://www.lasershow.sk/products/39-...color-spectrum

[Jem]

Is there any such thing as ILDA over IP? Wireless options?

Might be worth reading through this (old ) thread:

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...light=wireless

Of course the biggest problem with wireless is safety, so long as you can address that there are wireless options that seem to be successful. Drop 'Andyf97' a PM, he's used wireless networking with QM2000.nets in the past and can possible offer further information.

Cheers

Jem

[dsli_jon]

Did you hang something behind the windows to project onto?

Nope, just some good ol' fashioned latex house-paint and a roller...learned that trick from workin at a sign-shop for a couple years as a younggin...

RE: 'which to buy, 2x lower-power or 1x higher', well, a) depends much on what 'type' of shows you plan to run - music / dance-festivals / civic events, in large outdoor-venues (..which, sounds like if your $$-partner is doin pyro, it might be more of that-type..) , where bright beams / aerial-fx are typically king... or, more 'corporate'-style / indoor-events / club-werk, where 'Graphics' are typically more-important, and, thus, the 'need' for a more 'finessed'-unit (ie: RGB or Kvant..) is more of an advantage..

..If you're gonna mostly-do 'aerial-fx' to compliment pyro, (..and your 'typical-audience-size will be under 5000 peeps..) you might be well-off with a couple of 5-8 Watt (total) power Green / Blue-combo 'satellites', for nice, highly-visible BGC (blue-green-cyan)-aerials, and perhaps, a ~2-3 W Full Color unit (ie: RGB Compact 2..) for any sponsor-logos / graphics-needed... Yes, you might have to 'bump' the budget a bit, to do all 3, (plus all your other 'sundries'.. but, it will be well-worth it, vs just 1 'mondo-power' unit, imo...

..But, I'm gonna shut up now, and let the others input....

cheers
j

PS - stay-away from *anything* marked 'LW'...
just my personal dos centavitos..

[White-Light]

Do Laserworld work with Kvant to, or use their design?? http://www.laserworld.com/en/purelig...gb-detail.html
Kvant 19W http://www.lasershow.sk/products/39-...color-spectrum

Most likely they've sourced cases either from Kvant themselves or from their supplier as I doubt Kvant manufacture their own cases on site.

[White-Light]

Jon I think the OP said the pyro guy is looking for outdoor lasers, is 2-3w rgb going to cut it?

[edison]

I build ocassionally the ones on the picture. I have developed my own lasers but brightred is still in development. That means the driver isn,t ready yet to protect the diodes against overheating. And when for some reason it gets to hot and the diodes died i need to replace them. For outdoor events 660 isn,t an option i think.

I have blue,s up til 8 watt. The red should be an RGBlasersystems module in my opinion. Scanners should eyemagics. I would go for a little more blue since this will give you an awesome cyan and its very suitable for outdoor because of the brightness. Low divergence is more bright to the eye and that is important.


Because service is important too go with someone who is willing to spend extra time and effort when needed. Buying a system is one thing, but service is another. When having a system it not the end of the story. When something goes wrong you want someone who cares about helping you out no matter what, even if it cost him money when its not his fault.

Oh by the way loved your country!!! I been there 8 months in 2007. Loved the people very friendly and helpfull

[planters]

Jon,
I'm wondering if you have thought about the appeal of a VERY powerful projector for aerial shows? The manufacturers discussed so far, do produce high power units that at the limit of the budget will provide 15W, but the system your working on will far exceed this. What about a moderate RGB with a couple green satellites along with a big single red/green/blue for primarily outdoor use? Hmmm

[dsli_jon]

...is 2-3w rgb going to cut it?

Thanks fer the nudge, m8, but I was saying 2-3W for *graphics* (..and, 'supplementary', at-that.. not 'center-stage' / star of the sho, for that-big of a crowd, especially with-pyro, etc.. ) but yeah, at least 5-8W of GBC, for aerials... If, however, Sir vIQleS knows that he / they will *never* need to do graphics, then, yes - pump every-last allotable-dime into as much power / brightness for your aerials-rigs as ya can... and - as the 'Doublemint twins' have well-taught-us - 'two are always better than one'...

I'm wondering if you have thought about the appeal of a VERY powerful projector for aerial shows?...

Oh, Sire - have waaay-more-than 'thought' about it... we're in-production, mama!... Prelim-tests suggest better-than 45W of RGB, but... we'll see what the 'real-world' has to say about it, when all is done / working in-harmony, soon... Follow this thread in the coming-months...

Now back to, uh... Sir vIQleS' thread...
cheers..
j