"X" Prize - $1,000 Contest

[X-Laser]

Many of us have been troubled by the lack of a decent red solution ever since big blue came in to town. There are a lot of smart folks out there that have been working on it for a while now, but with no clear frontrunner as of yet. At X-Laser we respect the amount of research, brainpower and effort that has been put into this project so far and as such we'd like to incentivize things a bit.

X-Laser is putting up a $1000 CASH bounty for the best high powered red solution that this community can generate. To qualify for the prize, it will need to meet these specs:

Power: 1000-2000mW
Wavelength: between 635-640nm
Beam diameter: Less than or equal to 5mm
Divergence: Less than or equal to 1.5miliradians
Fast axis correction: 1:3 or better

Many people can do that with an unlimited budget, what we will be judging the entries on is who can come up with the design that can be manufactured at the lowest cost without meaningfully compromising stability of optical alignment or the life of the diodes. Alignment stability is really key of course.

We're posting this bounty up for the next 2 months, if you have a design that meets these specs and can send it to us with specific details on parts, focal lengths, etc. you may win the bounty. Of course, working models are going to get you a lot farther than theoretical written plans, but we're open to all ideas. This bounty is for the diode, mounting and optics solution, the electronics aren't a major concern for the purposes of the bounty. We will give special consideration to submissions which include concrete cost estimates from vendors capable of completing the work in small batches of 100 units or less.

All design ideas and submissions will become the property of X-Laser to be used at our discretion. Physical proof of concept pieces will be returned within two weeks of the contest ending. We will announce the winner at the conclusion of the contest. People can of course work together but each submission must be submitted under only one name. The prize will be paid to the ONE person whose name is on the submission. How the funds are disbursed is up to the winner.

Please post questions here or by PM if you don't want to give away the "magic." =)

[kiyoukan]

It is no longer a flash light.

A beam with around 3.65mm wide by 2mm with around 1 to 1.1 Mrad
give or take .6mm
powers from 600mw very under driven up to 1.2W over driven with the 300mw mitsu diodes.
With the 500mw mitsu diodes the same optics can be used and powers much great around 1w to 2W can be gotten.
If you wanted more power you could build 2 of these and use a waveplate and pbs cube.
Thus getting you a max power of 4W all with near close to the same beam specs.
With no splash or wings a good pure laser beam.
My current setup with custom optics.


There are some parts that are going into each other i just have not redesigned them but its nothing hard to do.
This build was also one for as small as possible if you can go larger it would be a better. i just liked the enclosure.
The reason for the border is the whole thing will be covered by this

The bottom will be cut out and where the holes are in the plate will be the only parts left on the enclosure to secure it.
If any of you have seen my you tube channel you have seen my results with my current set of lenses.
http://www.youtube.com/user/kiyoukan1
The build takes advantage that my optics work differently that Drlavas.
His uses one concave and one convex lens.
Mine use two convex lenses.
So there is a point when the beams come together in a very small point
See very bad drawing.

This allows you to use a FS mirror to get the beams super close.
There will be alot of pictures to come.
Now for my setup i am using a 6X c lens setup.
The lenses are very easy to work with so easy they are faster to setup than prisms.
The reason why is the fact that they are large and as such getting the diode on the center of them is very easy and even if you are not on the center you wont lose any power.
I am getting optics made but wont be able to get a full price quote till the first of the month due to the china holiday.
But if you guys want to see them
These are the diode lens.
There is a 2mm efl and a 2.75efl lens
The ones i have coming from dave are 2mm efl
I decided to buy a set due to the production time will take a few weeks and i dont want to wait.


This next picture is my custom Cylindrical lenses.


If you are interested in getting some optics to make and correct a 635nm diode let me know.
To get good prices on lenses we will need to order at least 50 of them.

Important price info
Price for 2 cylindrical lenses will be from 30 to 35$
Price for diode lens is 40$ (order from dave at LSP once mine get made price will be lower)
So for a full set will cost 70 to 75$
For a dual diode setup will only cost the price of another diode lens plus 10$ as i can cut these lenses in half and you can use that for each diode
These optics are a bit cheaper if i were to take no profit but there is alot of money and time spent making this so i would like to make my cost back.

If you want a list of my suppliers that can be talked about in private that is the only thing i wont give out.
if you read that thread there is a link to my you tube channel but i am using plastic lenses. So i cant push the diodes without melting the lenses.
Also the video quality is crap.
All my results are going to be public no information will be kept private.
I do have a price but i would rather let everyone have the knowledge than just a few.

UPDATE QUAD BUILD
qtopside.jpg
qtopleft.jpg
qtopfront.jpg
qtopback.jpg
qtop.jpg

[swamidog]

All design ideas and submissions will become the property of X-Laser to be used at our discretion.

Please post questions here or by PM if you don't want to give away the "magic." =)

sorry?

you're offering 1000$ for someone to design a red laser module? are you claiming exclusive ownership/patent on the design? what about rights and royalties?

"all design ideas and submissions will become property of X-Laser to be used at our discretion."

if i send you an idea, and you never use it or ever pay for it, it's still your property? exclusive property?

look, i love the spirit of innovation and there are some smart people here that can probably meet your specs, but you have some wording here that makes my spider sense tingle. x-laser has a good reputation, and i'm sure you mean well, but i would never submit a design to a competition with terms this vague.

a laser module with the desired specs sells for more than you're offering as the "prize".

[soforene]

...All design ideas and submissions will become the property of X-Laser to be used at our discretion.....

Maybe on Planet X-Laser but we roll differently here on Planet Earth.
Who on Earth would even give you a sniff of an idea (that you would use to make money) and sign away all rights.


Granted, there are millions of numpties out there but folks who tinker with lasers have a bit of "nouse" and wouldn't entertain such an idea.

Time for a rewrite of your rules methinks ................

[X-Laser]

Swami -

We are trying to encourage innovation here by throwing down some money to give people a goal and a reward beyond bragging rights and a nice module. All or nearly all contests of this type contain the stipulation that all submissions become the property of the awarding party because it gets very messy trying to figure out whose idea belonged to whom and when and to what degree when many similar ideas could be submitted. This is very common and really should not elicit a spine tingle... I never said anything about exclusive property nor would anyone other than a fool patent something submitted in a contest without a written IP release by the inventor who would then probably still need to be named anyway.

If I was intending to have it all for X-Laser and no one else ever there would have been a LOT more fine print and probably a submission form because it would need to be signed as full IP rights release.

I am going to be a little snippy here because I have never had someone criticize a prize - or a "prize" as you say - being offered for something that people are working on anyway. Yes, a red module with these specs is more than the amount of the prize... but that is exactly the point: to be able to bring the cost down by combining a good design(s) with economies of scale and quality manufacturing. Does it decrease our R&D cost? You bet - which then also makes the modules more affordable once manufactured.

In any case we are putting up some money to help support the communities' efforts in what we hope would be a win-win-win. If a thousand bucks is not enough money for you then I respectfully suggest that you not participate, or put up a "prize" yourself in a bigger amount. In any case, we are trying to make a meaningful contribution to this community which also benefits X-Laser. If that seems inappropriate, my apologies and I will happily retract the offer.

[andy_con]

if you really wanted a red module you could contact me, edison, simon and im sure some others who i cant think of off the top of my head. we all have our own designs for building red modules

[kiyoukan]

so far i think im the only one to publish public results.
if you got any questions ask away.
I have a machine shop to work in so i can make any prototype very fast.
Most members hate showing their hands i like to give them out.
Also i am selling that dual red setup for around 650$
So the prize is good for me!
But i make and supply all the components my self even my optics are custom made i will buy what i have to from others but then i go and get them made myself for cheaper.
Tooling charges are a bitch tho.

[colouredmirrorball]

(...)

All design ideas and submissions will become the property of X-Laser to be used at our discretion. Physical proof of concept pieces will be returned within two weeks of the contest ending. We will announce the winner at the conclusion of the contest. People can of course work together but each submission must be submitted under only one name. The prize will be paid to the ONE person whose name is on the submission. How the funds are disbursed is up to the winner.

Hi,

I don't understand this part really good. How can a design magically become the property of X-Laser? What if the design is already patented by someone else than the winner?

[kiyoukan]

updated my post with more info

[X-Laser]

Hi,

I don't understand this part really good. How can a design magically become the property of X-Laser? What if the design is already patented by someone else than the winner?

Thanks for the question. Simply put, we intend to use the winning design and may also incorporate other elements and ideas from our own work and other sources. When money becomes involved people get a little nutty so by declaring that submissions and the ideas therein become the property of X-Laser, as a blanket statement, we are able to use those ideas without having to fear someone coming back months later and suing us. Additionally, making such a declaration means that a design which is already patented cannot be entered as it cannot become 'our property.'

Let me give you a quick example: X-Laser has a design we have been working on in house... nothing patentable but a few good ideas. What happens when one of the submissions in the contest incorporates a similar idea or even the same element which we later decide to use? The person submitting the non-winning idea might not believe we had the same idea as well before, or that we had already licensed it from someone, or ...whatever the case may be. Doing it this way completely eliminates the issue of ownership and thus eliminates both legal liability and hard feelings. Agreeing that the design will become the property of X-Laser is a prerequisite for submission so it is not 'magic,' it is a term to be eligible for the prize and anyone who disagrees can very fairly choose not to participate.

Otherwise, we would be offering a contest and cash prize for someone to come up with an idea which we would then not be able to use. That does not make any sense.

The very idea that we would somehow expect to exclusively own every red module design in this community is absurd nor have we requested or required that anyone 'sign away all rights.' When you submit an entry to an essay contest, or engineering contest, etc. the designs become the property of the contest host (at least usually) but that does not mean that they own them exclusively unless that was somehow stipulated in the rules (which in this case it was not). People are putting words in my mouth which simply were not there and were never meant to be implied.

@Andy - Yes, absolutely there are some good designs out there but to be frank the information about them is far flung and we do not have time to sift through things to find all of the information, figure out if they meet our criteria, if not have a half dozen conversations over a couple of months to refine them, if so figure out what it might cost to manufacture, etc. Individuals know their work the best and we thought this would be a good opportunity to refine it for our specs, formalize it, and put it all in one place for a strong critical evaluation. We also need something that can be made hundreds of pieces at a time or more so pre-made kits are not quite what we are looking for... but a kit design could certainly be submitted to be judged based upon the above criteria.

I hope that clears it up and we can all move on.

[kiyoukan]

So in short even if we submit our design and win the cash prize we can still build and sell that design here correct?

[dave]

if you really wanted a red module you could contact me, edison, simon and im sure some others who i cant think of off the top of my head. we all have our own designs for building red modules

Looks like he wants a cheap red module tho Andy....

[dave]

Maybe it would get more interest if instead of a cash prize, you licence the design, and pay a fee per module.. otherwise it seems like a bit of a scam..

[gottaluvlasers]

I'm a little disheartened by some of the replies here. I think what Dan and X-Lasers has offered is quite a cool little contest. There are quite a few people here that have made and developed some REALLY ingenius modules. edison, Andy, Dave, MANY of you have made some works of art. I dont think, (and I may be wrong) That Dan nor X-Lasers have once said that you give up all rights ot your design. I dont understand where all of this apprehension has come from.

I hear/see this all of the time...

For you Dj's out there- If you remix a song and/or enter a remix contest, if you submit the remix to the label/artist whatever- the work becomes their property. If it is used, you gain some sort of compensation.
Funny video submissions on TV- Send in a video of your cute dog falling in a pool- the tape becomes the property of the channel.
Logo contest for business'- you design a logo for a business/corp- the design becomes the property of the company/corp.

NONE of these situations denote them taking your work and claiming it as their own. nor does this contest.

All design ideas and submissions will become the property of X-Laser to be used at our discretion

I think this just means exactly that- your submission becomes their property if you win. If Joe Smith submits XYZ red module and Joe wins, he gives X-Laser permission that that submission is 1) of their own design, 2) gives rights to X-Laser to use this design as they see fit in their product as this is now "Their property." *NOT* their invention. *NOT* exclusiv rights to the work. You are just saying, sure....my work is for you guys to use as your property.

Music is the same. If you are in a band or DJ, you pay (or are supposed to pay) rights to "borrow" the rights to use a song in your set. Here in the U.S. its ASCAP or BMG. they govern a product (the music) and you're paying them to use their product (property) to make money off of it. It doesnt mean that the music is SOLELY yours. It doesnt mean that the original artist (or laser designer) cant use their product anywhere else. you're just letting somebody use your product with permission.

I dont know, maybe im 100% wrong with whats going on here. But I think some of the accusations and assumptions here are a little un-called for.

Just my opinion.

-Marc

[kiyoukan]

I am all for this.
There is alot of work put into making these.

[flecom]

Maybe it would get more interest if instead of a cash prize, you licence the design, and pay a fee per module.. otherwise it seems like a bit of a scam..

that would get messy since a lot of the designs are "crowd sourced" different ideas coming together and the module evolves into a final product... many people could claim ownership... although I guess the same could be said about any design...

oh well at least they are trying to do something, everyone came together and made the 445 modules kick ass, I know we have people smart enough to make these reds not suck

[taggalucci]

Before I begin with my comments, I hope you understand Dan (and others) that in expressing my viewpoint, that this is not an accusation or attack. Unfortunately many folks here seem to take robust debate in a negative context (especially if they're on the receiving end)! For example if I say "I think you are trying to scam cheap R&D off the PL community" this would just be a representation of my perception, which may not be shared by others or even be factually true. What it isn't is an accusation. If I was making an accusation, it would be stated along the lines of "you are scamming cheap R&D..."

So with that hopefully setting the tone of my feedback...

In any case we are putting up some money to help support the communities' efforts in what we hope would be a win-win-win.

In any case, we are trying to make a meaningful contribution to this community which also benefits X-Laser.

Given you are a commercial enterprise that would benefit financially from a successful outcome from this initiative, how would we, the PL community as a whole, benefit? What would the "meaningful contribution" to this community be?

I don't think the idea is poor. But I do think the communication of the initiative and its details has been. That's not to say it couldn't be improved. One key aspect to illustrate this is that through a lack of clarity around the details regarding use, property, IP, ownership etc. many concerns have been raised. I think it's more than reasonable that they're raised in the absence of any real clarity.

I hope you can make a success of such an initiative and that you are able to contribute meaningfully to this community as a whole.

[LaNeK779]

i have no problem to share my designs - contraptions - ideas etc with any other person like me i.e. a hobbist, or with a professional that has actually taken the time to listen to me and offer constructive criticism, that is what the forum is about. but mr x laser, what you offer is wrong in so many ways that i cannot even begin to comment

if you wanted to make this interesting you would add another zero at the end and give PL 10% of that, or cover R&D costs and offer a commercial agreement with royalties for the first 200 units or so. A 2watt kvant or cni or rgblasersystems costs more than 3000 usd. The 2watt mitsu solution that some of us already have, in theory or partially assembled or even fully tested and working won't cost more than 450-600 usd. So this is around 2500 profit for you (not factoring in any quantity discounts or other benefits you might have). You are interested in a production run of 100 pieces, so this would benefit you around a quarter of a million if my math is correct. Not even mentioning that you could blow away competition with a whole series of projectors with bright red at one third of the price. And for all this you are offering just 1000...

i'm irritated to say the least, this is so out of the community-project spirit. if you want to help and contribute mr corporate guy, approach an optics company that won't even talk to us, solve the problem and then let some vague info "leak" out on the forums. even that would be usefull. you are the pro, we should be asking you for knowledge, not the other way around (and practically for free)

and what is more irritating is that you openly admited some posts ago that despite all parts, numbers, focal lengths, suppliers etc having already been posted all over here, you can't be bothered to take the time and search

oh well...

[Bradfo69]

Fortunately, this doesn't necessarily affect me as I don't have a clue about designing something of this nature. It only effects me as a member of the forum and, the effects, positive or negative of offering such a contest here in the forum. I see both sides and, agree and disagree with various points for each but, to me, it comes down to this.... If you have an issue with the terms... simply don't enter! Novel concept, I know but, it's much the same as watching American Idol and saying, "I hate this show." And, not being smart enough to change the damn channel.

I don't think there should be a big fear that suddenly the forum is going to be filled with contests like this. It's probably a "one off". Dan is a regular contributing member and not just a "sign up, post a contest, and leave" kinda guy. He's on the board of ILDA, donates prizes for LEM's, financially supports PL, etc. And, truthfully, doesn't sell a product particularly geared towards the bulk of members here. Is he looking for a little low cost R&D? Yeah, probably. If I enter the contest, am I smart enough to realize that? Yeah, probably. (If you can design a red, you can probably also "read between the lines.") If the designs are posted here for submission, are you the member getting the benefit of seeing them and potentially building your own? Yeah, probably. Is $1,000 too cheap in the grand scheme of things? Yeah, probably.
Is X-Laser getting exclusive rights, copyrights, i.e. "screwing the designer" out of being able to profit on the design? No.. doesn't sound that way. And, I think Dan knows that would make him about as low around the laser community as whale shit.

So... I don't know where an opinion like that puts me on a political spectrum. Is "wishy-washy" an option?? It rubs me a little the wrong way like LaNek779 but, by the same token, I see where it's not as bad as it appears as posted by Gottaluvlasers. (and Dan's rebuttle.)

If a few want to try and make a little cash by posting something as freely given and detailed as kiyoukan, they have that choice.
My $.02.... About all that's left! (Silly assed hobby)

[Fearless]

I'm certainly in for the lens group buy, when everything is in place. I've struggled with an 8 LOC setup for over a year, and I would love to replace it with a two diode setup. Thanks for all the hard work!IMG_0032.jpg

[laserdj]

X-Laser could just have kept quiet and copied the best design, without offering any incentive... I doubt any of us would have filed a patent application for our red module´s design.

They are offering you money to help recover some of the costs... if you don´t like the offer, just don´t take it!

They didn´t say "if you win. surrender your design to us, and nobody else will be allowed build it"

That´s just silly...

To be fair I think $1000 is nothing in this hobby, they should have offered more cash... but as I said... they didn´t even have to... they could just wait, watch and copy...

[norty303]

they could just wait, watch and copy...

I thought the whole point of it was that they didn't have the time to do that?

[kiyoukan]

updated with quad build in my previous post.
BTW if you want a mechanical drawing off all the parts and the layout let me know.

[X-Laser]

Gentlemen,

I have taken a small step back here to reflect on some of the feedback and while I must admit that I expected this notion to be met with a little more trust if not enthusiasm, I recognize that some of the terms were not clear. Let me clear that up and answer a few things directly.

First, I never expected nor intended to stir up some of the issues here. For whatever part the lack of clarity in the terms played in that I apologize.

Secondly, let me state directly that I never intended for X-Laser to solely and exclusively own every (or even some) of the red module designs in this community. As Marc notes, terms such as what we presented are very common for legal reasons which have nothing to do with malicious patenting or some other anti-competitive IP maneuver. The design is invented by the inventor... assigning a submissions content as property to the contest holder simply means that the contest holder can use the content.

Thirdly, there has been some question as to whether or not $1,000 is adequate for some degree of ownership in the design. That is a matter of opinion - however considering that a submission does not limit the rights of the inventor to assign, use or license the design beyond the contest it would be illogical to offer the equivalent of the ‘market’ rate for the design (eg. ‘add a 0’) if for example we had developed it fully independently and owned it exclusively.

I think $1,000 is a reasonable amount to spur innovation especially considering that it is an idea and all of the further integration with our products, prototyping after we make changes, etc. will still need to be done. AFTER the idea is fully formed and done it will still likely cost us $50,000 in direct expenses and outlays not counting overhead to get it to market. As such, any economic projections which assume 500% profit margins are hugely unrealistic. This is doubly true since they are based upon an assumption that we would be charging the same as everyone else which I already stated was not going to be the case.

Fourth, there is the question of how we seeing this benefitting the community in the win-win-win. We see three ways:

We would hope that the contest parameters and further conversations would lead to some new ideas and unleash some creativity on the existing designs thereby improving them and making them more flexible. Perhaps everyone would just submit as-is but part of the point was to incentivize improvements so as I say, we would hope improvements would happen. We expect that many of those designs would ultimately be shared with the community for the benefit of the communal dialogue... which is why we are all here.
While it does come at a lower cost in currency and a higher cost in time, supporting the community’s efforts financially is undoubtedly beneficial. Someone would have a good chunk of change to put toward their work, their bills, etc. and for everyone else paypal debits a donation from us every month to support Spec and the forum.
As I said previously, the POINT of this is to have a lower cost red solution that works well for most needs. Kvant makes some wonderful product... but it is expensive. Surely the hobbyist and semi-professional community would benefit from a well designed red solution manufactured with economies of scale.

As a last though on this point, R&D costs have to be amortized into the cost of the product. The more we spend on R&D (and we have already spent a fair amount), the more the thing costs everyone in the end. That is part of the reason that I suspect we end up with a $3K red that only has maybe $1.5K in parts, labor and overhead. Will going this route save us R&D money? Absolutely, of course. It will also allow us to make the product affordable which is (per #3) good for nearly everyone. Will we make some money off of selling these? Perhaps... but not much and virtually all of it will go into R&D on the next project. Certainly we do not project anything in the ballpark of $250K as was thrown out there. I might even have to give back my “mr corporate guy” club card and secret decoder ring. =)

Look, we have on several occasions entered into business relationships with folks in this community and never once have we taken a design in whole or in part without seeking a mutually agreeable compensation arrangement. In fact, one person told us that we could just HAVE a design after I offered a compensation arrangement and I later came back to him and told him that we would be putting HIM on the patent. I don’t believe that I/we have done anything to warrant the level of suspicion and mistrust that has come out in this thread. Integrity is paramount to us, and to me personally.

Lastly, with regard to licensing and Dave’s point: this is a very reasonable choice for a manufacturer because you typically pay for only what you use. So why not use it? I HATE licensing especially for small batch manufacturing because there is always the question/concern about underreporting usage. To allay that concern, licensing arrangements typically include auditing provisions where the manufacturer hires a CPA to come in for a few days every quarter to pour over their books and certify the payment schedule. This is time consuming, expensive and still fraught with mistrust and hurt feelings. For these reasons I much prefer clean solutions which do not require auditing. I most cases I would rather spend the time and money to do R&D ourselves just to avoid piece based agreements.

In any case, several people have contacted me directly and asked that I not rescind the offer. I made it and I will stick by it incorporating the above clarifications. If folks continue to feel that this is in some way inappropriate, we will take it offline. I would prefer to leave it here so that we can have a good, productive conversation (see community benefit #1 above).

[norty303]

One question - will/could this result in a finished OEM red head available to builders, or would you only use the design in your own finished products?
I think the former is the way this competition would really benefit the wider community here.