Chinese (or other low-cost) Lasers with FDA Variances

[wmodes]

I now know a lot more than I did two months ago about lasers, and a lot more than I did (which was nothing) about Chinese low-cost lasers.

Since I'm interested in doing crowd scanning legit-style, it will make it much easier to get a variance for a particular show if the equipment itself comes with a variance.

I know there are folks here who make their living selling high-quality lasers, so apologies to them as I ask about lasers that are more in keeping with my modest budget. For instance, I'm interested in a 1W RGB for under US$2K.

Are there Chinese (or other low-cost) lasers who have their FDA variances? If so, can you recommend a contact?

Thanks!

Wes

[The_Doctor]

A recent discussion said that variancing can be a large-ish part of total cost, so varianced projectors will likely never be cheap. The only way to get the price down is to study how it's done, to reduce the workload you end up paying others for, and to think carefully about your intended context. That's VERY important because if the context is well defined and fixed, you may be able to list a large number of projectors that will fill the need while being unable to exceed that context, and get one variance that will let you freely change between any of the listed systems without needing a new variance.

In other words, it isn't so much the projector that is being varianced, but the context of its use, which includes its own nature but is not limited by it.

Chinese sellers may be unlikely to supply a variance because it's expensive for them to do, and they can't control the context their product will be used in, so all it means for them is extra work, forcing the price up and reducing their likely market. It's basically not in their interest to do this.

[Stiffler]

Hi Wes,

It would be helpful if you had your location filled out.

[wmodes]

Done. Santa Cruz, California...

[Stiffler]

Hi Wes,

As the Doctor stated, a lot of the cost is with the variance process itself and as far as I know NO Chinese company, and very few non-US companies offer lasers with any variance, much less a variance for crowd scanning. X-Laser is going to be your most economical option, but you will still probably need to spend $5000-10,000 for a projector you can audience scan with, plus the extra paperwork for your variance. And that is on the cheap end.

[dsli_jon]

Hi Wes -

..Since I'm interested in doing crowd scanning legit-style, ...Are there Chinese (or other low-cost) lasers who have their FDA variances? If so, can you recommend a contact?

First, kudos to you for 'asking for advice' before just heave-ho-ing it out in the real-world and scanning people in the face w/o a clue.. Yes, there are a couple 'Chijector' co's that have achieved 'Certified-pj's' status, and have US Variances.. None, however, that I know-of, that are approved for Audience-scanning - *that* is a whole-nother ball game, which I will explain.. But, uh.. please excuse me while I tune out some 'noise'..

...In other words, it isn't so much the projector that is being varianced, but the context of its use...

I'm sorry - don't mean to be rude, but WT are you *talking* about, man?? It's got everything to do with 'the projector', and that's just for-starters.. 'Context' is a literary-device - has nothing to do with Audience-scanning approval, here in the US..

Can you please do me a favor? Unless you possess a US-variance for audience scanning / actually DO it here, with approval, could you kindly refrain from doling-out *incorrect advice* to up and coming laserists, here? 'Just trying to be helpful' is fine, but *only when* you've got more than a flapjack's-clue of wtH yer talking about.. I'd eat a dirty sock before I tried to give someone in the UK 'advice' about complying with the Regs, there, especially when I was flat-out more off base than the San freakin Andreas, capiché? Thanks.

*ahem*.. OK, Wes: Here's what ya need to do...

1 - Check out any 'potential-interest pj's' / Co's, here: http://www.regulations.gov ..Type in either the Projector model, Or, the Co. Name in Search (..and you may find it helpful to 'narrow the search by-Agency' by typing-in / selecting "FDA"..) Here's an example of a 'ChiCo', that has US Varianced PJs: http://www.regulations.gov/#!documen...09-V-0307-0003

..If you cannot find *anything* about a ChiCo / their Projectors - even if the Co. hired a US-side 'Importer of Record', and there is-no 'mainland ChiCo company info' on the Var-app / subsequent Docu-trail, you should be able to find *some* reference to the 'OEM' / pj-models, etc.. That probably (..but not *absolutely*..) means that the ChiCo / their PJ's are *not* Certified. And don't let any use of 'but we have an "Accession #' fool you.. That is *not* - I repeat, NOT - an 'Approval' / Certification.. All that is is your 'take a number' ticket / proof of reciept that they got the Application..

2 - IF you find a ChiCo / Pj mentioned, READ the Variance-app, and any sequencial Docu-trail, from the FDA, ie: For the 'Able Laser' link, if you click on "Open Docket Folder", you can see all the 'Apps / Replies / Comments / Approvals (or, Denials / request for more info, etc..) / Warnings, etc.. From there, you can see *what Models* the FDA has - or has-not - Approved as 'Certified' for use in the US, legally.. ie: Notice if you will, (continuing with 'Able', there..) "Variance Attachment A", there in their approved-Var PDF.. See 'Condition #5'? That = NO AUDIENCE SCANNING PRODUCTS APPROVED FOR THAT CO. So..

3 - The *proper way* to do 'legit' Audience-scanning is a) You need to do some *major* homework. Best-option is to pay a professional US Co. that has AS-approved products / does approved AS-effects, and can teach proper safety-limits and best-practices. b) Buy an AS-approved PJ (..and there are-no 'ChOEM' approved-pjs, that I know-of.. The ones approved / sold in the US may contain 'ChiCo parts', but.. AS-approved, 'off the shelf', none I am aware of..)

..c) Get the proper fx-testing equipment / training, SO THAT, when YOU apply for YOUR AS-Variance.. (..that über-elusive little check-box on the Var-app.. you will be able to 'defend yourself', when the FDA puts you thru the ringer / challenges your submission. (..and they WILL...) EVEN THOUGH you 'have an approved AS-projector' / got AS-training / certification, etc, etc.. So, next..

4 - Don't believe me. Talk to the US Companies that *have* AS-performance Variances / sell AS-approved PJ's. Yes, as 'Stiffler' suggests, "X-Laser" (..and that is the X-Laser USA, in MD - *NOT* to be-confused with an 'X-Laser, HK', a sleezy rip-off Co. out of 'Hong Kong', who's products are NOT Varianced, let-alone AS-safe.. ) and also, "LSDI" in Florida - they carry / Certify the 'flagship' AS-line, based on the 'RGB Lasersystems' Compact-line, out of Hungary.. Top of the Line (.and, umm, a 'bit more' than $2K. There is also 'Lightwave' out of PA, but.. I don't know that they 'sell' their AS-approved rigs, since they are based-off the 'Arctos' line of PJs, and nobody in their right mind want's to pay what they wanna charge for those things..

..And, lastly, sorry to say, but.. cheap 'valu-jet' pj's, and 'legit audience scanning' are diametrically-opposed, polar-opposites, I'm afraid.. :/ ..and NO, that is NOT for some silly-ass 'reasons of monopolization' / competition.. It is to keep the 'Quality' best-practices 'up' in this country, to keep the 'Guv' OFF all our kiesters, dig? Pangolin-chief Bill Benner once said to me, in a convo about the 'nuts and bolts' of AS-tech, 'if a Pro-Co does not have $25K to spend on doing Audience Scanning 'right' / safe? Then they have *no business* doing AS..' and that is one thing I can completely-agree with him on, no arguments. I think he's totally right on that.. Why?

..because, who do you think is (inherently) going to be more 'astute' about doing AS-correctly / safely - the guy that invested $25K to 'get into it'? Or the guy that (barely) has $2K in the game? When 'push comes to shove' (ie: maintaining expensive liability insurance / maintaining your Certifications / doing your Annual-report / measuring MPE, etc, etc..) the guy that's got 'more at stake' is more likely gonna be the one to 'not risk cutting corners', and losing all his cookies (..and wreaking-havok for the rest of the industry, via more-draconian Guv-restrictions, etc..) Not to say that someone who 'only spends a couple-G' is certain to be an 'irresponsible-douchehat', no.. But, if you've blown all your gaskets to 'finally get that Ferrari of yer dreams'.. unless you're a total-moron, you're not likely to go out doing 90 down a school-street at 8am, high on 20 Miller-Lites and a speedball, amirite? I'm sure you get the point..

..Anyhoo, hope this helps. I highly-suggest you TALK TO DAN at X-Laser; TALK TO GREG, at LSDI; TALK to Bill Benner, TALK to Casey Stack of 'Laser Compliance'- http://www.lasercompliance.com/ Don't just 'take my word for it'.. DO the homework.. AS-fx CAN be done, legally in this Country (ie: Justin Timberlake's recent Tour-fx.. All approved / safe..), but it is *definitely* a 'measure twice, cut once' affair, not something you can just 'get into for a couple $G', and, uh, Sorry but, certainly-not something to take the 'armchair quarterbacks' of this forum's advice about, ...'well intentioned' or not..

OK, I'll shut up now.
ciao..

j

[dave]

ie: Justin Timberlake's recent Tour-fx.. All approved / safe..

I heard whispers somewhere it wasn't safe..

[dsli_jon]

I heard whispers somewhere it wasn't safe..

..I (initially..) questioned it, also.. Then I read this: http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...737#post279737 ..and spoke to 'Count Funkula', there, in PM, and he has intimate-knowledge of the PJs / tech they are using on-Tour, and, testifies that, at the *very-least*, the ShoCo. Did-get approvals / Do-have an AS-performance Var / are-using AS-approved rigs.. *AFAIK*..

..I mean, I have not (personally) seen what is *actually* being performed, on-Tour, etc, so I guess have to (fairly) state that it certainly is possible that what was 'preached vs practiced', on Tour, is disparate / possibly-unsafe, but.. I also have no reason to suspect the info I was given was not trustworthy.. Especially since a Co. with such a 'Ferrari of a-Client' / Tour is not likely to 'cut corners' / risk that relationship.. and (I'm sure..) quite a bit of Bank..

cheers...
j

[The_Doctor]

I'm sorry - don't mean to be rude, but WT are you *talking* about, man?? It's got everything to do with 'the projector', and that's just for-starters.. 'Context' is a literary-device - has nothing to do with Audience-scanning approval, here in the US..

I read many discussions on projectors that are varianced for a given context, some for crowd scanning, some not. Of course the projector IS relevant, Go back, and read what I said, I never said it wasn't, I said that the variance is NOT LIMITED to the projector. This is why some projectors may be varianced for a particular use, but would need a different variance if you changed context, e.g. wanted to do crowd scanning with a particular projector where you hadn't before. I remember that stating specific purpose of the projector was a BIG part of filing for a variance, so the context is important even though you implied it is not.

Also, you are being too hasty. Does a soldier have an exclusive right to all talk about war? I have as much right to express a view as you do, and you should have known better than to be so hasty, and to have misinterpreted what I said.

[dsli_jon]

Doc - (..though you are probably 'Adam' or 'Dave', right?

I read many discussions...

..OK, Stop... Directing a fledgling laserist, seeking *correct* info on how to do something - that is inherently-dangerous - 'legit style', is NOT a place for 'opinions' / musings / I think's / I feel's / the other nite while I was smoking my pipe..'s etc.. *Especially* when you are attempting to direct someone thru 'Regs' you, yourself, are not sufficiently-schooled in, Sorry.. As I said.. Unless you KNOW the process / have gone-thru it, have a US-variance for AS / DO it, safely / successfully, then you really have no business directing someone else - here - about it. (..that was a Period.) Sorry, but:

..on projectors that are varianced for a given context, some for crowd scanning, some not. ... I said ...some projectors may be varianced for a particular use, but would need a different variance if you changed context, e.g. wanted to do crowd scanning with a particular projector where you hadn't before.

..Your 'advice' / direction is murky, your terms are confusing / not what is used / understood in the US-industry / what people will encounter in the US-Var process, , and you aren't pointing the compass in the direction of the simple, clear FACTS / contacts, etc.. THAT is what 'Wes', et all, need here, in the US...

I remember that stating specific purpose of the projector was a BIG part of filing for a variance, so the context is important even though you implied it is not.

#1, I never implied 'context' is not important.. and, btw, the word you are looking for is "APPLICATION", not 'context'.. That word is not-congruent with what people - here - will-encounter going thru the US-Var process. I'm not picking on semantics, here, but, what you SAID:

...In other words, it isn't so much the projector that is being varianced, but the context of its use...

..is SCRAMBLED EGG... It *is* 'so much the projector'! AND the training / MPE-measurement know-how, AND the performance-Variance, AND who, here, can help him get there, 'legitimately'.. THAT'S the 'compass direction' Wes, et al, needs, relative to AS, here, ok??

Does a soldier have an exclusive right to all talk about war? I have as much right to express a view...

Yup, you have every right to post as much murky-direction as you'd like, Soldier.. And I, and others - here, over in this 'army', who's Regs you are posting, unqualifiedly-about - have every right to counter or correct those 'views'. However, 'How to Legitimately Do Audience Scanning', here in the US, especially with (historically) un-safe / non-compliant products, ie: Chijectors, IS NOT A PLACE FOR UNQUALIFIED 'MUSINGS' OR 'VIEWS'.. it is a place for Compass-like FACTS, and Accurate course-correction - from Reply #1. ...Just-like I am sure a 'cadet' would get trounced on, if he were posting-off in some 'sniper forum', saying 'oh, yeah, it isn't so much the rifle or round-used, but.. blah, blah, blah..' If you are going to Post-advice - for laserists / about the Regs, here - it better be crystal-clear, accurate, and 'just the fact's, ma'am', Dig?

Again, kudos, Wes, for your efforts to 'do it right'.. Again, when it comes to doing Audience Scanning - correctly - here, please consult with ACTUAL EXPERTS, such as those I ref'd, in my original-reply.. Let me know if you need / wish for Contact-info / introduction-emails, etc.. Cool?

ciao
j