Oh Bollox

[VJ AIWAZ]

hey Jon
from what i can tell the xt widemoves are not clones
first thing you would notice if you had a pair in your hands that you cant tell from just looking at a pic is the size of the body is much smaller than the eye magic(Greeks) and so is the shaft and mirror as well as the mounting screw on the back is much smaller on the widemoves

also i could be wrong but i don't think that medialas makes them i think they just sell them i think that jm laser is the company that makes them


http://www.jmlaser.com/products_english/M9024.html


well any way i pulled these numbers from the pdf of the widemoves

Dimensions L x H x W 40 x 21 x 22 mm


--

John
VJ AIWAZ

[dsli_jon]

hey Jon
from what i can tell the xt widemoves are not clones
first thing you would notice if you had a pair in your hands that you cant tell from just looking at a pic is the size of the body is much smaller than the eye magic(Greeks) and so is the shaft and mirror as well as the mounting screw on the back is much smaller on the widemoves

also i could be wrong but i don't think that medialas makes them i think they just sell them i think that jm laser is the company that makes the

well any way i pulled these numbers from the pdf of the widemoves

Dimensions L x H x W 40 x 21 x 22 mm

Hey John -

Well, first off, I wanna make it clear that this is NOT any sort of 'attack', but is your info a bit more 'subjective' than factual?...
What I mean is:

#1 - do you have EMS to compare? I don't have any WideMoves right now (I am currently bidding on a pair to get them in again to eval..), so yeah, I am making 'suppositions' off pix, BUT - check these out below - there HAS TO BE SOME (I didn't say "clones") DESIGN-SHARING or 'rights-to-design' OFF OF EMS' original design, here... and mirrors can be changed, the shafts might be shorter, and they might use a different mounting nut, but what i am after (for The Doc's-sake) is the INTERNALS -

I wanna see pix of the MAGNET of the widemoves, to compare with what I know of the 1-st Gen EMS mag-issues, to SEE IF this MIGHT be a POSSIBLE cause of the problem Doc was describing - I say this cause I have personally done service calls on Client's EMS that HAD this issue, and SOME OF the results sound VERY SIMILAR to what Doc posted...

#2 - the 'widemove specs' you posted are IDENTICAL to the 'L-bracket' measurements (except for H) found on EMS' spec-pdf, so COULD the widemove 'specs' actually be those of the brackets? Yes, EMS' listed dims ARE slightly bigger, but they are also listed including the connector (as part of the W dimension) as well-as the shaft/mirror (as part of the H dimension) so it might be a bit of '???' info you have there from 'JM'...

#3 - Wondering (just curious, cause I'd like TO know...) WHY do you think JM is the manufacturer?? - is there 'ownership-language' / copyrights, etc in the 'manuals (PDF) for them? From what I understand, MediaLas actually did at least contribute SOME WM development (ie: that is NOT an EMS amp/driver) ...I honestly don't understand them to be EITHER ONE of theirs' 100% original designs...

Yeah, we could each measure / post the dims of each of our galvos - but as we all know - IT'S NOT THE SIZE OF YOUR GALVO THAT COUNTS... it's whats' INSIDE (in this case) - so, any chance you wanna post some real good, 'macro-close-ups' of the GUTS of your WMs and then we can see if my post is totally rubbish for helping Doc?

Cool with you? - lemme know.. peace...

- J

[VJ AIWAZ]

well as far as the owner ship of the WM design i was just guessing but i was going on the fact that the company i work for sells a lot of the wm's and they were originally buying from Medialas but now are getting a much better deal from now jm i never asked

as for the Greeks i was out working for laser design productions in Vegas for a week to help them out and they use a lot of the Greeks and when i saw them for the first time i just thought that they were just bigger i mean i could be wrong as i didn't have them side by side but i remember thinking that they were much bigger than the wm's


yea i can crack one open i have a few sets around now
i just took some measurements and its 7/8" X 7/8" X 1 6/8"


sorry for the bad pics its a cheap cam

--
John
VJ AIWAZ

[sbk]

DLSI_Jon : here you can see some better pictures of the interior of the Widemove : http://www.laserfreak.net/forum/view...179&highlight=

(I have the Widemove, but these pictures comes not from mine, I don't want to open them )

[Banthai]

Hi all

SBK that pic reminded me of the artical on laserfreak about the eyemagic delaminating magnet issue

so heres the inside of the eyemagics

http://www.laserfreak.net/forum/view...light=eyemagic

definately not the same but it looks like some inspiration was gleamed from one or the other

im sure that jojo has said somewhere that the widemoves were a progresion of the catweazle scanners

maybe worthwhile PMing jojo here on PL, im sure he will give us the facts

all the best .... Karl


EDIT .... just PMed jojo so hopefully he will be able to help with some info

[dsli_jon]

Hey Gents - THANKS!!! great pix refs...

(and nice try John - THANKS, but I JUST NOW realized, after rubbing my eyes for 1/2 hr, that I did not really have vaseline in 'em!)

definately not the same but it looks like some inspiration was gleamed from one or the other

im sure that jojo has said somewhere that the widemoves were a progresion of the catweazle scanners

Well, this would fit perfectly - IF Tom (EMS) licensed his 'body' design to MediaLas, and then they took off with it, using concepts/tech from their CWs, to design the WMs - ESPECIALLY IF the MOTOR uses the same magnet (and regardless of the shaft, mounting screw and clear circuit / pos-detect differences - the MOTOR DESIGN looks IDENTICAL - I doubt it was just 'borrowed' or just 'copied' - don't think EMS' were designed as an 'open source' project!)

The core issue (no pun intended) as it relates to Doc's post, here, is that MAGNET - IF, when you look into the 'space' in the coil (from the top) on the WideMoves you see what appears to be a CHROME-coated magnet - and especially, if it appears to have a somewhat 'rounded-corner-cube' shape, and not a perfectly-smooth, round drum-shape that is charcoal in color, that is LIKELY the same mag used in the old-gen EMS' with all those problems - here's the EMS:



(...that unrelated white 'blob' appears to be silicone or ??? covering a really 'wirey' IC-replacement-job, as seen in the last pic...)

POINT BEING for Doc, that since I have seen (in the EMS' that HAD milder, early-magnet-deterioration) behaviours that sound IDENTICAL to what he described, I'd at least venture to say it would be worth a quick 'rotor test':

Grab-hold of the edges of the mirror, and gently, slowly turn the rotor back and forth, (GALVO POWERED OFF!! ) and you should feel NO 'resistance' - that is to say, nothing that feels like it is 'binding' or 'gritty' - it should move nearly effortlessly, and with a gentle 'snap' as it moves to it's other 'pole' - IF you DO feel any - even slight - 'grit' or resistance, well it COULD BE a bad magnet, and that would account for the 'come and go' nature of the severity of the problems you were seeing... especially suspicious is that is got worse at higher galvo 'speeds'...

OF course, this also all assumes Doc has not found / resolved his problem, and/or even gives a flying hootenanny anymore , so if I am just needlessly rambling, just lemme know!

peace..

- J

[The_Doctor]

I want a flying hootenanny, especially if I can modulate it at over 500 KHz.

Interesting posts, and excellent pictures and linkage. Far better pictures than I could get, even if I were to open the galvos. I won't though, unless I can be very sure to avoid mirror or axle damage.

Mine feel ok when turning the mirrors: smooth, just the gradient and change as poles meet and pass. The display problems were always there, and affect the least movement, whereas something like delamination would likely affect the larger motions, not the smaller ones. That design IS a copy, for sure. Might be totally legit, no reason to assume otherwise, but I agree, the EyeMagics and the WideMoves come from the same branch even if they're separate twigs. WideMoves were also sold by another firm (than MediaLas), not sure who though.

That whole mechanism is not encouraging. Some long barrelled ferrite ceramic might be better. Not sure what's in the CT scanners, or the DT-40's, but this short laminated frame stuff is little more than an analog meter movement! Kudos for getting as much out of it as has been got, I guess.

[dsli_jon]

I want a flying hootenanny, especially if I can modulate it at over 500 KHz.

Mine feel ok when turning the mirrors: smooth, just the gradient and change as poles meet and pass.... The display problems were always there, and affect the least movement, whereas something like delamination would likely affect the larger motions, not the smaller ones...

That whole mechanism is not encouraging.... but this short laminated frame stuff is little more than an analog meter movement!

Hey Doc -

LOL... Yes, I'm sure most of us could use a good 'flying hootenanny' - whatever the heck that is!

RE: passing the 'rotor test' - glad to hear it - it was a thought, anyway - HOWEVER, IF you are feeling adventurous, you SHOULD be able to just 'slide' the cover off, pulling it gently towards the direction of the mirror, for a closer inspection of the magnet, perhaps with a loupe and a good strong worklight...

Reason I suggest that (before total elimination of my 'magnet conspiracy theory', here) is because I came across at least one set that were SHIPPED with already 'flaking' magnets - not totally de-lammed yet, but where a little spot of the nickel was a bit 'blistered' - of course, this only worsened with time / use, and would produce the aberrations even at lower speeds / minimal-point fx - things like not being ABLE to make a perfect circle, regardless of hours of tuning (ie: you could 'fix' the anomaly by blowing up the gain on that one bad-axis, then all of a sudden - not necessarily even on high-point-count / hi-speed gfx - the thing would go wonkers on that axis, and you'd have to adjust it back down, bringing back the 'flat spot')...

Anyhoo, the more I re-read your posts - especially seeing that ANYONE else, NOT using an EMS OR a WideMove, can reproduce your problem, would seem to 'close my case', here, but just an alternate theory, due to my seeing many very similar-sounding results with the old EMS mags, and extrapolating that WMs likely shared magnets, among all the other 'design sharing' / licensing, etc...

RE: scanners = analog meter - LOL... that's about it! - 'galvanometers' are really not much more than a 'super-duper-flying-hootenanny' of a DC volt-meter, with 'a steering-wheel' (position-control) - which is why some of the new-gen concepts for scanners (those micro 'moving-mirrors') are so interesting...some wild stuff out there on the horizon for sure...

Well, cheerio, and hope you find out what's 'buggin' your WMs - when I get a set in in a couple weeks, I'll see if I can reproduce the anomaly, and I'll 'pop the hood' and take some good pix, and see if we can't figure out what it is / debunk their method of 'position-detection' - perhaps it is nothing more than a 'limitation' of their DESIGN (???) - maybe (especially if ALL NEW ONES ship this way, (thereby 99.9% eliminating a mag-delam issue) MediaLas (or whomever) got themto this point and just said 'oh, bollox! it's bloody-well good enough for it's 'purpose', and left it at that...???

cheers..
- J