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Thread: Laserworld

  1. #1
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    Default Laserworld

    Ok, here goes...

    I try to be a VERY unbiased and "dont pay attention to they hype" type of person. So with all of the bad publicity i (and others) have heard regarding LASERWORLD LASERS lately, i REALLY wanted to get my hands on some of their equipment to prove that the negative publicity of LASERWORLD LASERS was unwarranted and outright wrong. Or, just some freak accidents of a few individuals who didnt know what they were talking about.

    I had my chance.

    and, no such luck!!!

    I had 2 customers (who can chime in here if they so choose ) come to my house with 2 of their recent LASERWORLD LASERS purchases. A 3.5 WATT (model "Show 3500") (guaranteed minimum output 2.2 WATT) RGB "Pro line" White light full color system. and a 2 WATT (guarantted minimum output 1.5 Watt) 532 "Pro line" system.

    First Up-
    LASERWORLD LASERS SHOW 3500 RGB LASER SYSTEM

    PRICE $5,500.00 USD

    #1- BUILD QUALITY. "B" (RGB Projector ONLY! Green system, see below!)

    Surprisingly, the units that they brought to me were built with "care" and time was spent to make things look "Professional." The Layout was well thought out. The wiring was neat, cooling was efficient. solder joints were good. terminal strips were easily accesible. Wires were easily traceable. Overall build quality was, in all honesty, quite nice. Lasers used were CNI Lasers which, other than being GROSSLY mis marked as to their power outputs, looked to be of CNI's usual high quality. Scanners look to be a ScanPro "X" K system. I may be wrong though. Perhaps Dave or Aijii could confirm or deny this?? This paragraph, unfortunately will end ANY positives regarding this LASERWORLD LASER.
    LW 001_1.jpg
    LW 002_1.jpg

    #2- POWER OUTPUT. "F"

    this RGB Laser system is rated as a ~3.5 WATT (Guaranteed balanced minimum output of 2.2 WATTS). This Laser STRUGGLED, and i mean STRUGGLED to hit about 600mW of White output. All lasers on. No modulation. 5 volts DIRECTLY input on each Module head. (NO software even in the loop!!!)
    LASERWORLD LASERS rated outputs of Show 3500 Laser System:
    RED (635) rated at 1.7 WATTS
    GREEN (532) rated at 350 mW
    BLUE (473) rated at 200 mW

    ACTUAL OUTPUTS of LASERWORLD LASERS SHOW 3500 LASER SYSTEM:

    RED (635)- 340mW
    LW 012_1.jpg
    GREEN (532)- 150mW
    LW 005_1.jpg
    BLUE (473)- 115mW
    LW 014_1.jpg

    Combined total of 605mW White at full intensity, all lasers on full power. Again, LASER WORLD LASERS SHOW 3500 LASER SYSTEM Boasted output power from factory is 3.5 WATTS typical output. Balanced white output of ~2.2 WATTS. ACTUAL OUTPUT= 600mW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I will take into account that the readings were taken AFTER THE OPTICS. Ok, so lets assume that LASERWORLD LASERS used the WORST possible optics known to mankind with an optical loss of ~20%.

    measured outputs would be (with error correction of optics taken into account)
    RED (635)- 408mW
    GREEN (532)- 180mW
    BLUE (473)- 138mW

    TOTAL- 726mW.

    Lets ALSO assume that the scanners used are the worlds WORST scanners with the worlds WORST mirror coatings on them. so, lets assume about 20% loss on EACH mirror (X and Y mirror) for a TOTAL LOSS of ~40% (which really doesnt even exist, but hey...lets play along). loss of ~290mW
    726mW + (optical loss of scanners) 290mW= 1.01 WATTS.

    I am STILL VEEEEEERY far away from their output quote of 3.5 WATTS or a minimum of 2.2 WATTS.

    OK. Now the GREEN LASERWORLD PRO-2000G LASER SYSTEM:

    PRICE- $3,500.00 USD

    LASERWORLD LASERS specs this output at 2 WATTS output. Laser class= 3B. really? i thought 2 WATTS was class IV? but hey...im a dummy i guess...anyway....
    50k scanning at....ready for this....60 degree angle. LOL LOL

    #1- BUILD QUALITY. "D-"

    quite simply, a joke. This one was NOT put together nearly as well as the RGB system. It looked as if this system was put together by a pissed off 7th grader who just lost his "guitar hero" tournament.

    Here is the worst part...

    It was a refurbished unit. LOL. The Laser inside was a no-name laser. i couldnt identify it at all. i am sure someone could, but i couldnt. the face of the laser module was scratched up and it even had the fu*king "service repair" sticker STILL ON THE MODULE!!! This WAS NOT sold to the customer as a "refurbished" unit!!! It was sold to the customer as a 2 WATT NEW LASER WORLD PRO-2000G Laser system.

    #2. OUTPUT POWER. "F" BIG FAT FAILURE!!!

    I tested this with both Pangolin Laser software AND direct 5 Volt on the input line completely bypassing the software. And I tested it in CW mode with NO modulation AT ALL.

    LASERWORLD LASERS PRO-2000G 2 WATT GREEN Laser system factory specified output...
    2 WATTS

    Actual, real world, output power....

    LOL....i think i can, i think i can, i think i can......515mW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    LW 017_1.jpg
    LW 019_1.jpg

    Ok, again...i measured AFTER the optics. So I will use the same mentality as i did earlier...

    20% loss on EACH scanner mirror...
    515mW laser ouput+ ~40% (2 scanner mirrors) loss (NEVER in the real world...but ill humor the idiots at LASERWORLD...)
    515+205mW=720mW. Here is new math for everyone here...
    720mW is equal to 2,000mW LOL. same thing right???

    Bottom line is this...

    LASERWORLD LASERS is outright liars, thieves, cheats and pathetic individuals who call themselves laserists. I dont give a shit HOW MANY "Satisfied" customers they had in the past. The bottom line is that NOW...the company decided to become cheats and liars. The letters i have seen from the company to pissed off customers (rightfully so) just accude the customers of not knowing what they are talking about.

    the companys defense is ALWAYS...point the finger ELSEWHERE. its not "our fault." its..
    a bad meter, dirty optics, broken dichro, you dont know what youre talking about, you tested it on a sunday...they only work well on thursdays, the laser was having a bad day, the diode must be misaligned, you must have the wrong voltage, yadda yadda yadda...

    STAY AWAY FROM LASERWORLD LASERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PERIOD!!! END OF STORY!!! NO QUESTIONS ASKED!!!

    -Marc
    -Connecticut Lasers
    http://www.laserist.org/images/ildalogos/ILDA-logo_colored-beams_Corporate_150w.jpg

    ILDA- U.S. Laser Regulatory Committee

    Authorized Dealer for:

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    • KVANT Laser Modules & Laser Systems
    • X-Laser USA
    • CNI Lasers
    • Cambridge Technology & Eye Magic Professional Scanning Systems

    FDA/CDRH Certified Professional LuminanceRGB Laser Light Show Systems


  2. #2
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    Thumbs up Very nice review!

    That only thing I have ever liked or thought looked decent about the ProLine is the case. What do you think that is worth by itself; no scanners or optics?
    Love, peace, and grease,

    allthat... aka: aaron@pangolin

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    Any photos of the guts of the thrown together green? (Not that I'm going to buy one either way) - more just for shits and giggles

    Perhaps they put that special coating on the mirrors, you know the one that is black coloured and absorbs 75% of the power
    Somehow I think not...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gottaluvlasers View Post
    Scanners look to be a ScanPro "X" K system. I may be wrong though. Perhaps Dave or Aijii could confirm or deny this??
    Nah, they arn't the same ones we sell.. TBH, I have never found the manufacturer of these ones.

    [edit]Nice review BTW
    Lasershowparts- High quality DPSS lasers, scanners and DMX converter boards for sale at great prices
    www.lasershowparts.com
    http://stores.ebay.com.au/Lasershow-Parts

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    Quote Originally Posted by gottaluvlasers View Post
    these guys SERIOUSLY need to get out of the laser business
    No, they need to be forcefully removed from the laser business...

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    Quote Originally Posted by danielbriggs View Post
    Perhaps they put that special coating on the mirrors, you know the one that is black coloured and absorbs 75% of the power
    Somehow I think not...
    They're not all bad. My RS 600RGY which I brought to UK LEM puts out 667mw after about 5 mins (around 620 from cold) and is built like the description of Marks 1st laser, very well and extremely tidily.

    I don't have any decent pics from UK LEM of it though as it was towards the back of the room and was a little under hazed as a result.

    That said, it doesn't excuse the other ones they appear to sell. They should all be like that!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1t8ull View Post
    No, they need to be forcefully removed from the laser business...
    Sad thing is, if they where selling anything else but lasers, they already would have been removed from business.

    On the other hand...

    I see a strong resemblance between laserworld, and the car-audio world. Both sell products that need specialised equipment to measure the output power. Not easily available to the consumer.

    Laserworld are the "1000 Watts power subwoofer" sellers of the industry.
    They will continue doing so, until their reputation is distroyed. Then they will just change their name.

    As long as there are customers that only seem interested in:
    Dynamic contrast ratio 1:10.000, Power: 1000W pmpo, 1500W vaccuum power, 3,5 W rgb laser, these companies will exist.

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    Nice review of a (not at all as nice) projector

    One thing appears strange to me though : the case of the RGB3500 on your pictures isn't the same that showed on their website for that model (here). But rather the one used on the 1000-2500mW model.
    But when you look at eBay, you find the RGB3500 (selled not directly by Laserworld), advertised with similar cases pictures as yours (here).

    On Laserworld's website the specs of the RGB3500 is :
    - 400mW/532nm
    - 400mW/457nm
    - 2400mW/650nm

    On eBay, the specs of that so-called RGB3500 model are :
    - 350mW/532nm
    - 200mW/473nm
    - 1750mW/650nm

    Back on their website, the specs of the RGB1000 are :

    - 125mW/532nm
    - 125mW/473nm
    - 650mW/650nm

    These last specifications are quite well matching what you are measuring, not? So isn't your model simply a 1 Watt model sold as a 3,5 watt, sold by an unscrupulous seller ??

    In all cases, you should note that these specs are all relying on the overpowered RED to boost the total power... There's really a marketing issue with Laserworld that the customer has to be aware of... (that is also in relation with the "pleasant technician" vs "arrogant boss" reported on another thread about Laserworld). 'coz 5500$ for a "normal" 3,5W RGB laser isn't at all realistic!!

    One positive thing though, this last point should at least comfort all of us hobbyist, coz that's comparable to the price I put to build my own 1.1W RGB projector

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbk View Post
    Back on their website, the specs of the RGB1000 are :

    - 125mW/532nm
    - 125mW/473nm
    - 650mW/650nm

    These last specifications are quite well matching what you are measuring, not? So isn't your model simply a 1 Watt model sold as a 3,5 watt, sold by an unscrupulous seller ??

    ...'coz 5500$ for a "normal" 3,5W RGB laser isn't at all realistic!!

    One positive thing though, this last point should at least comfort all of us hobbyist, coz that's comparable to the price I put to build my own 1.1W RGB projector
    You do make a valid point, $3000 or so for a turn key 1W RGB, using the above specs (CNI lasers), that seem fairly balanced, LaserWorld 50K scanners (Karl likes em right?), would be a very good deal; especially with a really nice case that it has.

    The real problem is LaserWorld is selling this decent 1W system while saying it is a 3.5W. It looks like the unscrupulous seller on eBay IS LaserWorld to me, even if they are going for $1500. It IS eBay though...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbk View Post
    ...There's really a marketing issue with Laserworld that the customer has to be aware of...
    Would that be the bit where they blatantly lie time and again about the specs of their product and continously rip people off?

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    Quote Originally Posted by allthatwhichis View Post
    The real problem is LaserWorld is selling this decent 1W system while saying it is a 3.5W. It looks like the unscrupulous seller on eBay IS LaserWorld to me, even if they are going for $1500. It IS eBay though...
    You're right, I checked on their website and yes, the eBay seller (which is a pro seller) is one of their official german reseller.

    Quote Originally Posted by soforene View Post
    Would that be the bit where they blatantly lie time and again about the specs of their product and continously rip people off?
    It seems like there's two Laserworld
    => the one who are selling the cheap projector with the hugly looking case (with CNI lasers modules), lying on the spec, and having lots of complaints all around the world, with bad or no service at all

    => the other line of laser with the great professional looking case, which are much higher priced (with Swisslas laser modules), but seems to be good value, with the right specs, and with good after-sale service (wondertwnz made a positive report with a defective red module, which was easily replaced).

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    allthat said..

    LaserWorld 50K scanners (Karl likes em right?),
    yes i do and so far they have performed well .... but would i buy from laserworld again ...... big fat NO ...

    not after they are pulling this shit...

    as dave said .... it would be interesting to find out who makes the scanners ... as i would certainly buy another set direct

    all the best ... Karl

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    Lightbulb

    We have a new member... laserworld-ag

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    GOOD!!!

    i would LOOOOVE to see what the defense of THIS review is!!

    dirty dichros? laser was mismarked? shipping knocked the lasers out of alignment? the flux capacitor was discharging too quckly? my meter is broken? the light was shooting in from the right instead of from the left?


    LASERWORLD-AG.....

    PLEASE....i beg of you....PLEASE provide some REAL explanations as to why you insist of ripping off customers as of late.

    -Marc
    http://www.laserist.org/images/ildalogos/ILDA-logo_colored-beams_Corporate_150w.jpg

    ILDA- U.S. Laser Regulatory Committee

    Authorized Dealer for:

    • Pangolin Laser Software and Hardware
    • KVANT Laser Modules & Laser Systems
    • X-Laser USA
    • CNI Lasers
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    Evening dudes,
    Heres my two cents on laserworld products. I'm currently running 20k ( aka 12ks ) and 50k ( very nice 30k's ). Have a 300mw laby, which fecked up at about 30 hrs from new. Replaced FOC for new unit with very friendly support.
    Horrific shipping charges.

    Looking forward to hearing from them on the forum, 'cos the're getting serious bad reviews all over, and if it was my company, I'd want to get a few issues sorted, asap.

    Cheers

    Lex

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    in all honesty...

    my biggest complaint with LASERWORLD LASERS is their outright lying and dishonest practices.

    just from the 2 systems i tested...they BOTH failed miserably any sort of quality and standards practice that almost ANY note worthy company would set as a bar for itself.

    a business is a business. i have said it before, ill say it a MILLION times more. shit happens in business. things fail in business. whether it is lasers, shoes, cars, watches, or kitchen knives. things break. accidents happen. how the company HANDLES that situation is what speaks of the companies integrity and the companies commitment to its customers and its field of practice.

    LASERWORLD LASERS has been continuiously, outright lying and cheating people. THAT is why they are getting the negative feedback they are getting!

    i GUARANTEE you, if they sold a 3.5 watt laser and it only measured at 500-600mw and said, "OH MY GOD....mr customer, i am SOOO sorry, that must have been mismarked or an accident, here...let me make this up to you, i will ship you a brand new one tomrow." if THAT was the road they took with their pissed off customers i bet you a million dollars there wouldnt be a fraction of the pissed of people there are out there.

    take care of the problem at hand laserworld! dont blame it on EVERYBODY else but the people responsible for the problem....YOU!!!!!

    -Marc
    http://www.laserist.org/images/ildalogos/ILDA-logo_colored-beams_Corporate_150w.jpg

    ILDA- U.S. Laser Regulatory Committee

    Authorized Dealer for:

    • Pangolin Laser Software and Hardware
    • KVANT Laser Modules & Laser Systems
    • X-Laser USA
    • CNI Lasers
    • Cambridge Technology & Eye Magic Professional Scanning Systems

    FDA/CDRH Certified Professional LuminanceRGB Laser Light Show Systems


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    Quote Originally Posted by allthatwhichis View Post
    We have a new member... laserworld-ag
    I guess some troubles will begin, as it was the case on Laserfreak forum... (where the word "Laserworld" is censored all the way).

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    Quote Originally Posted by allthatwhichis View Post
    We have a new member... laserworld-ag
    Perhaps someone's " 'avin a larf"..........

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    Hello, my name is Peter and I work at Laserworld AG. We usually abstain from posting in forums, because we don't need this platform for advertising, nor do we try to fight our competitors, unless of course in the competition on the market.
    But there are a few commercial users in this forum who suffered a lot by our market presence and these have been the only people doing everything to harm our reputation, because one thing is for sure: every laser we sold is one which they haven't sold.
    If some give a great review about a product of ours, these few guys post so many bad feedback that the good people just stop working at all. We want to support those a bit, that guarantee that different opinions will be expressed in this forum. But we won’t follow suite and use this as a marketing platform.


    It is always quite interesting how measurements are done in forums like these, especially if it is about competitors products.
    I won't comment on these specific measurements. I have seen many of those, and they always follow the same routine. In fact the images look as if one "lab" and setup was cloned from the other. This makes it easier to comment on such measurements in general.

    So, just make sure how we select the lasers at Laserworld: well, we measure them before they are mounted in the projector. And I don't see many alternatives to that.
    In fact when we receive the lasers, as the diodes we get from our suppliers usually have a certain range in power.
    They not only meet the minimum specs, but usually are quite above.
    Unfortunately we can not just use lasers with any arbitrary power it just happens to have, as our customers often use more than one laser, and would rightfully complain if the brightness would differ.
    Fortunately, as we build large numbers of projectors, we have the possibility to select from large numbers of lasers.
    So, as mentioned before they are measured on arrival. Any other way would be a waste of time and resources, as it is hard to see how we can efficiently build a projector and then look and see what power it will have.

    When measuring the diodes not mounted into a projector, there is, in our opinion, only one practical way to do this. Put 5V at the signal input, and measure the power coming out.
    And that's the power we guarantee, not the output power after all optics. I don't think we mentioned anything else anywhere. Or that it is feasible to do anything else.

    And that's, by the way, a measurement under reproducible conditions. I always wonder why the measurements done by competitors always contain such amounts of irreproducibility (or rather I don't so much wonder).
    Just a thought, the reflection of a window, or mirror, is depending on the angle of incident (the Fresnel equations, if I remember it right??? Or maybe I'm wrong, if so, let me apologize beforehand). Nevertheless the measurements are done in some obscure (and irreproducible) setups.
    Of course, whoever does take the measurement, generously allows for a certain amount of loss, mostly with the words "even the worst optics wouldn't loose more than x%”. Well, in fact, it depends - even for the best optics.
    But, as the measurements are usually taken with an open projector - why don't you just measure before the optics, to eliminate any such effects? Maybe because the measurements would be other - higher, and reproducible.
    To make such measurements easy, I would suggest that such experts, that always feature a lot of expensive equipment on their photos, would use a simple tool we have to make measurements in a projector - a small silver mirror on a 45° mount - just put it before the laser and measure the beam coming out upwards.

    Also, from my experience, DPSS lasers take some warm up time, especially blue ones. That's why we take always a series of measurements, not just a still that can show almost anything from zero to a short lived peak way above the normal power.
    And, again especially blue lasers, are quite sensitive to temperature, so it would be nice to know at what ambient temperature the measurements were taken.

    I also wonder why people taking such measurements at RGB lasers always complain that one colour is much too low. But they rarely complain on the colour mixing.
    Unless, of course, you remind them of that, usually they will then follow up saying that this was the case in the first place - they just didn't mention it before. (Although the reports are usually long enough.)
    Well, if I bought an RGB laser I would have 2 main issues - first, the power coming out - and second the colour (and for some of our customers this comes even first). Strange that the latter is usually forgotten in such measurement reports.

    But maybe we should first agree on how such measurements should be taken? At the diode, or after all optics?
    And it would be great if we could have a standard on what specified power means. The power installed (as I guess is necessary for the classification of the laser, I don't think the FDA would approve a classification saying, "but we loose so much power...".
    The maximum power after all optics (maximum in respect to the incident angle of the beam). Or the minimum? What about cleaning all optics before taking measurements?

    Or maybe we can agree on what a "normal" loss of optics is? For single colour setups, or RGB with dichros? Then we could surely say one laser is better than the other, as some say that a Mercedes is better than a Volkswagen.
    (And thus justify the different price - if the same logics of these experts would apply to cars, we'd all have to drive Porsche and the like - all others are inferior - and don't mind the different price).

    We would really be glad to come to a certain set of rules in this respect. Maybe we can reach a level where we have a spec saying "power according to standard X". And, of course we would have to add to standard Y, and so on... I don't think just one standard would be appropriate to such a complex matter.
    But until then we specify what we have - the power of the diodes. And as long as we don't claim anything else, I can't see why this should be deceiving. Nor do I see why we should apply to "standards" raised by our competitors on the occasion of an ad-hoc measurement.

    @mark I will not go into commenting your special measurements - why should I, you do your measurements, we do ours. And I am sure they will differ, question is why. We will measure the lasers as soon as they are back here, we have them collected from the purchaser.
    By the way, in my opinion, it is a bit strange that you posted on the very same day you received the laser, whereas the customer who bought it, and who should be the one concerned, only contacted us a few days later.
    Anyway I am a bit surprised on your general attitude. Compared at our sales in the rest of the world USA was always a minor market for us, didn't think that with these small numbers we have made us so many foes there.
    But I have to admire, that you stand up to your point. The last "major assault" on our credibility on YouTube was done from a fake address (according to the authorities), and the IPs of the posts came from a different country, such cover up makes taking steps against such infringements a bit harder, though not impossible.

    @sbk, they different photos and specs you are referring to: it seems to me, that you confused the Pro-3500RGB and the Show-3500RGB.
    In the Pro-Series we select the lasers for the needed power, so if you buy another one, you can be quite sure the brightness is comparable.
    The Show Series are rated at a wider range, this allows us to use diodes that would not fit into the narrower range of the Pro-Series lasers, but at a lower price. So the chance that 2 Show Series lasers have the same brightness is smaller.
    And yes, our dealers sell them (mostly) on ebay, because somehow it seems people there want to buy cheaper products, and we give the people what they want.
    I guess every company would (or rather should) try to sell to the people what the people want, not what competitors think would be appropriate - they have their clientele, we try to please ours.
    But we have to use the diodes somehow, if we threw those, that are bit off range, away, our lasers would be a bit more expensive...

    @all whoever is interested in having a closer look at (and inside) our products is invited to come to our stand at the Prolight + Sound in Frankfurt. On Friday afternoon, when the business is calming down (ca. 5 to 5:30 pm), we will have a more informal round with anyone interested, where we will let you have a look inside the lasers. BYOPM (Bring your own power meter)!

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    soforene is offline The Troll formerly known as Herbert Von Poople-Futtocks
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserworld-ag View Post
    .... we give the people what they want.
    So you're saying that people who buy a 750 mW laser don't really want a 750 mW laser (cus they rarely get one).
    And that every review that appears here is from the same lab.
    And that you guys are the only ones that really know the power output of lasers despite many very knowledgeable people on this forum proving time and again that your lasers are underpowered and not up to the stated minimum spec never mind the publicised spec.

    I was right in my previous statement.

    You're 'avin a larf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laserworld-ag View Post
    Hello, my name is Peter and I work at Laserworld AG. We usually abstain from posting in forums, because we don't need this platform for advertising, nor do we try to fight our competitors, unless of course in the competition on the market.
    But there are a few commercial users in this forum who suffered a lot by our market presence and these have been the only people doing everything to harm our reputation, because one thing is for sure: every laser we sold is one which they haven't sold.
    If some give a great review about a product of ours, these few guys post so many bad feedback that the good people just stop working at all. We want to support those a bit, that guarantee that different opinions will be expressed in this forum. But we won’t follow suite and use this as a marketing platform.


    It is always quite interesting how measurements are done in forums like these, especially if it is about competitors products.
    I won't comment on these specific measurements. I have seen many of those, and they always follow the same routine. In fact the images look as if one "lab" and setup was cloned from the other. This makes it easier to comment on such measurements in general.

    So, just make sure how we select the lasers at Laserworld: well, we measure them before they are mounted in the projector. And I don't see many alternatives to that.
    In fact when we receive the lasers, as the diodes we get from our suppliers usually have a certain range in power.
    They not only meet the minimum specs, but usually are quite above.
    Unfortunately we can not just use lasers with any arbitrary power it just happens to have, as our customers often use more than one laser, and would rightfully complain if the brightness would differ.
    Fortunately, as we build large numbers of projectors, we have the possibility to select from large numbers of lasers.
    So, as mentioned before they are measured on arrival. Any other way would be a waste of time and resources, as it is hard to see how we can efficiently build a projector and then look and see what power it will have.

    When measuring the diodes not mounted into a projector, there is, in our opinion, only one practical way to do this. Put 5V at the signal input, and measure the power coming out.
    And that's the power we guarantee, not the output power after all optics. I don't think we mentioned anything else anywhere. Or that it is feasible to do anything else.

    And that's, by the way, a measurement under reproducible conditions. I always wonder why the measurements done by competitors always contain such amounts of irreproducibility (or rather I don't so much wonder).
    Just a thought, the reflection of a window, or mirror, is depending on the angle of incident (the Fresnel equations, if I remember it right??? Or maybe I'm wrong, if so, let me apologize beforehand). Nevertheless the measurements are done in some obscure (and irreproducible) setups.
    Of course, whoever does take the measurement, generously allows for a certain amount of loss, mostly with the words "even the worst optics wouldn't loose more than x%”. Well, in fact, it depends - even for the best optics.
    But, as the measurements are usually taken with an open projector - why don't you just measure before the optics, to eliminate any such effects? Maybe because the measurements would be other - higher, and reproducible.
    To make such measurements easy, I would suggest that such experts, that always feature a lot of expensive equipment on their photos, would use a simple tool we have to make measurements in a projector - a small silver mirror on a 45° mount - just put it before the laser and measure the beam coming out upwards.

    Also, from my experience, DPSS lasers take some warm up time, especially blue ones. That's why we take always a series of measurements, not just a still that can show almost anything from zero to a short lived peak way above the normal power.
    And, again especially blue lasers, are quite sensitive to temperature, so it would be nice to know at what ambient temperature the measurements were taken.

    I also wonder why people taking such measurements at RGB lasers always complain that one colour is much too low. But they rarely complain on the colour mixing.
    Unless, of course, you remind them of that, usually they will then follow up saying that this was the case in the first place - they just didn't mention it before. (Although the reports are usually long enough.)
    Well, if I bought an RGB laser I would have 2 main issues - first, the power coming out - and second the colour (and for some of our customers this comes even first). Strange that the latter is usually forgotten in such measurement reports.

    But maybe we should first agree on how such measurements should be taken? At the diode, or after all optics?
    And it would be great if we could have a standard on what specified power means. The power installed (as I guess is necessary for the classification of the laser, I don't think the FDA would approve a classification saying, "but we loose so much power...".
    The maximum power after all optics (maximum in respect to the incident angle of the beam). Or the minimum? What about cleaning all optics before taking measurements?

    Or maybe we can agree on what a "normal" loss of optics is? For single colour setups, or RGB with dichros? Then we could surely say one laser is better than the other, as some say that a Mercedes is better than a Volkswagen.
    (And thus justify the different price - if the same logics of these experts would apply to cars, we'd all have to drive Porsche and the like - all others are inferior - and don't mind the different price).

    We would really be glad to come to a certain set of rules in this respect. Maybe we can reach a level where we have a spec saying "power according to standard X". And, of course we would have to add to standard Y, and so on... I don't think just one standard would be appropriate to such a complex matter.
    But until then we specify what we have - the power of the diodes. And as long as we don't claim anything else, I can't see why this should be deceiving. Nor do I see why we should apply to "standards" raised by our competitors on the occasion of an ad-hoc measurement.

    @mark I will not go into commenting your special measurements - why should I, you do your measurements, we do ours. And I am sure they will differ, question is why. We will measure the lasers as soon as they are back here, we have them collected from the purchaser.
    By the way, in my opinion, it is a bit strange that you posted on the very same day you received the laser, whereas the customer who bought it, and who should be the one concerned, only contacted us a few days later.
    Anyway I am a bit surprised on your general attitude. Compared at our sales in the rest of the world USA was always a minor market for us, didn't think that with these small numbers we have made us so many foes there.
    But I have to admire, that you stand up to your point. The last "major assault" on our credibility on YouTube was done from a fake address (according to the authorities), and the IPs of the posts came from a different country, such cover up makes taking steps against such infringements a bit harder, though not impossible.

    @sbk, they different photos and specs you are referring to: it seems to me, that you confused the Pro-3500RGB and the Show-3500RGB.
    In the Pro-Series we select the lasers for the needed power, so if you buy another one, you can be quite sure the brightness is comparable.
    The Show Series are rated at a wider range, this allows us to use diodes that would not fit into the narrower range of the Pro-Series lasers, but at a lower price. So the chance that 2 Show Series lasers have the same brightness is smaller.
    And yes, our dealers sell them (mostly) on ebay, because somehow it seems people there want to buy cheaper products, and we give the people what they want.
    I guess every company would (or rather should) try to sell to the people what the people want, not what competitors think would be appropriate - they have their clientele, we try to please ours.
    But we have to use the diodes somehow, if we threw those, that are bit off range, away, our lasers would be a bit more expensive...

    @all whoever is interested in having a closer look at (and inside) our products is invited to come to our stand at the Prolight + Sound in Frankfurt. On Friday afternoon, when the business is calming down (ca. 5 to 5:30 pm), we will have a more informal round with anyone interested, where we will let you have a look inside the lasers. BYOPM (Bring your own power meter)!


    Just in case it disappears... I haven't read it yet...

  22. #22
    soforene's Avatar
    soforene is offline The Troll formerly known as Herbert Von Poople-Futtocks
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    Quote Originally Posted by allthatwhichis View Post
    ..Just in case it disappears...
    Why would it disappear?
    It's all a conspiracy theory by competitors who use the same Lab to take the same pictures cus they are jealous.

    Oh and all customers are dummies (including those in that tiny USA country) who don't know how to measure a lasers output cus only LaserWorld do.

    So shove that in ya pipe and smoke it............

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    Taking in account all of what you've said laserworld-ag (after you repeated yourself, going in circles many times), allowing warm up time, measuring before optics, in a vacuum, standing on one leg, doing a dance with a horseshoe round your neck; there is NO WAY a laser, supposedly rated at 1.7W, could jump up from 400mW to 1.7W, with those conditions. It's just not going to happen.
    When was the last time you had your meter calibrated?

    Dan

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    Peter are you trying to say you use the worst optics known to man? That you optics take away 2-3 watts of power? Did you really just say that?

    Stop beating around the bush. We all know what we are doing, including you. Its time to realize you need to man up in the industry if you want to survive.

  25. #25
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    peter-
    This post will serve as the calm before the storm. Perhaps give you a few hours to figure out HOW you will react to the FACTUAL FINDINGS of the 2 referenced laser systems from my tests. Please, i am sincerely asking you to read my first post because all of your so called reasons of mis-read measurements have already been addressed.

    PLEASE tell me you and your company have better explanations other than, ct lasers is jealous of us. Or that ct lasers doesnt know how to measure a laser beam. Or PLEASE tell me laserworld that the over 1 hour warm up time i gave your systems was not sufficient enough. I sincerely am hoping that you can explain your poor track record to a few of your customers here and to this board of laserists with more of an answer than- "its a conspiracy theory of small laser companies!"

    I await your reply. I will be posting IN DEPTH rebuttal to your assinine accusations and insights when i get home this evening.

    -marc
    -ct lasers
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