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Thread: Laserworld

  1. #101
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    LOL again...

    I will deal with this in EXTREME DETAIL when i get home this evening. Peter (laserworld-ag) i will be directing my questions and comments to you DIRECTLY. i would like DIRECT answers or comments for each of my questions and statements. HOWEVER, i would STRONGLY URGE you to seriously think BEFORE you type any responses. If you can not come up with better bull shit answers or 'walk around' explanations than you previously have typed, i would suggest you not type or say ANYTHING!! each time you or one of your 'defenders' types here, it demolishes ANY BIT of dwindling credibilty you and your company may have!!
    -Marc
    http://www.laserist.org/images/ildalogos/ILDA-logo_colored-beams_Corporate_150w.jpg

    ILDA- U.S. Laser Regulatory Committee

    Authorized Dealer for:

    • Pangolin Laser Software and Hardware
    • KVANT Laser Modules & Laser Systems
    • X-Laser USA
    • CNI Lasers
    • Cambridge Technology & Eye Magic Professional Scanning Systems

    FDA/CDRH Certified Professional LuminanceRGB Laser Light Show Systems


  2. #102
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    Can you provide the callibration numbers for your meters and detectors from Coherent?

    Quote Originally Posted by laserworld-ag View Post
    @soforene: no, I simply say we measure different things, the power at the laser, not after optics. BTW, with larger lasers we get a measurement protocol, and we get the same readings, so I don' think we're off that far. As is not to be expected, as our meters are calibrated regularly at Coherent.

    We also do measurements after all optics, and they are lower, as I guess everyone would have expected. Blame it on our optics (the worst in the world, as it was so nicely put here), or on the setup, or whatever. So the cheaper lasers have worse optics. As a competitor I would be glad for that. If it was the other way round, well, I guess I would feel uncomfortable if the competition would build better products for less.
    It is claimed, that for this price there should be better optics. Just help our marketing department - up to what price would it be OK to use the cheaper optics?

    And yes, with the red there is a loss through the size of the beam. We would be glad if there were red diodes at that price and power with better beam characteristics. We always point the problems with those lasers to our customers, but nevertheless people want to buy those. With our higher priced lasers we use different diodes with better beam characteristics. With those we need less red power to get balanced white. Because the losses are smaller. It's on our website, for all to see.

    But why aren't those things pointed out? Because claiming fraud reads better? If the claim is, that we sell underpowered diodes (with blacked out power labels), then take the measurements at the diode, it should be easy to prove the diodes are underpowered, don't it? And with an open projector it is really not that much more complex to take the measurement at the diode.

    There are mostly two theories on why we can sell cheap laser. One is that they are in fact underpowered. The other is we "tune up" the lasers, so they get enough power, but reducing the life time. It's hard to see how both can be true.
    We can sell cheap, because we sell in large numbers. Some 10,000s projectors of all sizes per year. And, no, I don't think that we are the only ones who can do measurements while all others are stupid. Just as I wouldn't say, that those 10,000 users are stupid, and not able to see that they are using underpowered lasers. I'm just saying we are measuring different things.

    Oh, by the way, regarding the blacked out labels on the laser, if you buy lasers in larger numbers in China, lets say of 200mW lasers, they will have, for example, 200-250mW with a label stating something like >50mW. Unfortunately some people don't understand the meaning of the ">" sign. When we asked to change this - they were blacked out. You got to love them for their simple solutions.
    CLICKY!!!

    Admin: In the immortal words of Captain Planet: YOU HAVE THE POWER
    Admin: (To quit being a bitch)

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
    That is Peter. Hes the CTO or something for Laserworld.
    Admin already did confirm it. Laserworld-AG is from Germany and Laserworld-AG2 is from Russia.
    CLICKY!!!

    Admin: In the immortal words of Captain Planet: YOU HAVE THE POWER
    Admin: (To quit being a bitch)

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Ben View Post
    Admin already did confirm it. Laserworld-AG is from Germany and Laserworld-AG2 is from Russia.
    Hey! Thats Estonia dude, not russia :P (laserworld-ag2)

    Cheers

    Lex
    PS.
    hurry up with that reply Marc

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Ben View Post
    Admin already did confirm it. Laserworld-AG is from Germany and Laserworld-AG2 is from Russia.
    It doesn't matter where they are from. Im telling you who it is.

    Peter loves to give those run around stories, and claim you dont know what you are talking about. Its his standard defense. Honestly all it does is piss people off. I dont know if he thinks that people believe his BS, or that he is getting away with anything. All he is doing is digging a deeper hole for laserworld to get out of. By my calculations they are 5.25 feet deep. .75 more to go.

    BTW who cares who Laserworld-AG2, that guy is... Well... umm...
    Anyways why would you copy laserword and then put a 2 after it?

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserworld-ag View Post
    @soforene: no, I simply say we measure different things, the power at the laser, not after optics. BTW, with larger lasers we get a measurement protocol, and we get the same readings, so I don' think we're off that far. As is not to be expected, as our meters are calibrated regularly at Coherent.
    With the greatest respect, everyone here usually measures the outputs direct from the laser diode ie. pre-optics. The original poster states he only measured from the aperture because he was rushed when making the original measurements so didn't have time to open the casing and he did make allowances for optic losses. I believe he stated that in his original post.

    If you check on page 3 he repeated the measurements direct from the diode and in front of the camera and the results appear to show 328 mw apparently from a 2 Watt rated Laserworld green direct from the laser diode: http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7009&page=3

    Are we really to believe the bounce mirror (used at your suggestion) has an apparent 1.7 Watt loss?

    Also, to suggest no-one on here has a calibrated meter is also short sighted.

    This forum is not a bunch of amateurs. Many people on here have their own Professional Laser Display Companies and in countries such as the UK they have to demonstrate power outputs for MPE purposes to representatives of the UK governments Radiological Protection Board for every event in order to be granted an event license. Do you think the UK government's Radiological Protection Board and the US FDA let the professional companies run by people on here get away with using un-calibrated meters? I believe the FDA require calibration every 6 months. Some companies on here are doing audience scanned displays to in excess of 20,000 people on a not irregular basis.


    Quote Originally Posted by laserworld-ag View Post
    We also do measurements after all optics, and they are lower, as I guess everyone would have expected. Blame it on our optics (the worst in the world, as it was so nicely put here), or on the setup, or whatever. So the cheaper lasers have worse optics. As a competitor I would be glad for that. If it was the other way round, well, I guess I would feel uncomfortable if the competition would build better products for less.
    It is claimed, that for this price there should be better optics. Just help our marketing department - up to what price would it be OK to use the cheaper optics?

    And yes, with the red there is a loss through the size of the beam. We would be glad if there were red diodes at that price and power with better beam characteristics. We always point the problems with those lasers to our customers, but nevertheless people want to buy those. With our higher priced lasers we use different diodes with better beam characteristics. With those we need less red power to get balanced white. Because the losses are smaller. It's on our website, for all to see.
    No one disputed any of this so far as I'm aware.

    Quote Originally Posted by laserworld-ag View Post
    But why aren't those things pointed out? Because claiming fraud reads better? If the claim is, that we sell underpowered diodes (with blacked out power labels), then take the measurements at the diode, it should be easy to prove the diodes are underpowered, don't it? And with an open projector it is really not that much more complex to take the measurement at the diode.
    Personally I never alleged fraud or anything deliberate on your behalf. In fact I never alleged a power discrepancy only mentioned alleged discrepancies as this is hearsay to me as I wasn't present.

    However, some members have posted pictures of power measurements taken at the diodes that appear to show a huge discrepancy with what is claimed (see page 3 again for photos showing an apparent 1.7 Watt discrepancy - 328mw vs 2 Watt claimed).

    What I'm interested in in is how this is explained? That doesn't appear to be calibration or improper metering and when the same meters with the same methods are put against other lasers such as Laserwave diodes by users on here, the laser diodes generally match or exceed the claimed power readings. Laserworld modules are not the only lasers to get tested on here. So if nothing is allegedly wrong with Laserworld modules, how come yours appear to give much lower readings often on the same power meters that show other lasers modules measured direct at the diodes giving or exceeding their quoted figures?

    You seem to be under the impression that everyone wants to hate you but we don't. You have taken some flaming on here from certain members but the bottom line is people on here would love to buy your projectors as sometimes an off the shelf solution is needed. The problem is, many of those who have done so have allegedly found them to be at far less than the stated power.

    One other interesting fact is if everyone measures power wrongly on here with inaccurate meters. How come when my Laserworld projector was measured it was OVER power? 667mw vs 600mw max, 400mw claimed. Oh well, at least I'm one satisfied Laserworld customer. Its just a pity others aren't because they're good value if up to spec and your lasers would fly off the shelves to many people on here looking for a cheap or off the shelf solution if only their own findings were better generally.


    @ Marc, if you still have the Laserworld Projector, why not put a video up of a power measurement from a known and labelled Laserwave Green module placed next to the projector then a direct diode measurement from the Laserworld Green Diode in the projector? There can be little dispute on calibration etc if the video shows you moving the meter from one laser to the other to take readings without any break in filming and also proves on film via a multimeter that there's 5v unmodulated into the Laserworld projector.

    Perhaps then Laserworld would be able to investigate this further.

    All the flaming thats going on gets no-one anywhere really.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
    It doesn't matter where they are from. Im telling you who it is.

    Peter loves to give those run around stories, and claim you dont know what you are talking about. Its his standard defense. Honestly all it does is piss people off. I dont know if he thinks that people believe his BS, or that he is getting away with anything. All he is doing is digging a deeper hole for laserworld to get out of. By my calculations they are 5.25 feet deep. .75 more to go.

    BTW who cares who Laserworld-AG2, that guy is... Well... umm...
    Anyways why would you copy laserword and then put a 2 after it?
    read the previous posts dude

    lex

  8. #108
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    PETER-

    there are a few quotes from a very dear friend of mine (einstein! ) which i think you should SERIOUSLY read and think about-

    "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

    in other words...you guys QUITE OBVIOUSLY got entangled in your own web of lies and deceit. you know it, i know it, people here know it, more and more customers know it, your boss knows it. any 7 year old kid who can read and has any bit of common sense knows it. the problem cant and wont be solved if all you do is sit there and try to defend, legitimize and justify falsifying information, lying about specifications, and outright deceive people to gain a quick buck.

    and this one REALLY pertains to you...

    "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

    The more you just type non-sensical answers here that pertain almost ZERO to the ACTUAL problem at hand, the more you prove your own ignorance and make your company look more and more ridiculous and guilty! i would MUCH RATHER you had not responded at all than to have responded as irresponsibly and non-chalantly (sp?) as you have. Its as if you didnt read ANY of my previous posts with supporting pictures, facts, measurements, statements and calculations. you are digging a hole so deep for yourself that i am honestly starting to feel bad for you.

    *IF*...i repeat...*IF* you respond, PLEASE....*PLEASE* PLEEEAASE...think before you type an answer and read it before you press "submit!"

    PLEASE DIRECTLY ADDRESS EACH QUESTION/STATEMENT BELOW-

    1. you wrote: "We also do measurements after all optics, and they are lower, as I guess everyone would have expected. Blame it on our optics (the worst in the world, as it was so nicely put here)"

    gottaluvlasers wrote: "Ok, so lets assume that LASERWORLD LASERS used the WORST possible optics known to mankind with an optical loss of ~20%."

    -The point being was simple. i was actually trying to DEFEND you and i was actually trying to GIVE YOU the benefit of the doubt. the readings on your lasers were SO ridiculously low that I HAD to try and find SOMETHING to account for even a little bit of loss. i was trying to factor in MUCH MORE than normal optical losses for you. I was stating that *IF* Laserworld lasers used the WORST optics in the world....THEN...their optical losses would be (insert my figures here). HOWEVER- even with those EXTREMELY exaggerated optical losses the output powers were STILL DRASTICALLY below even your minimum stated outputs!! as in, ~400mW for your red laser when in fact it is rated at 1.7 WATTS.

    2. you wrote: "with the red there is a loss through the size of the beam. We would be glad if there were red diodes at that price and power with better beam characteristics."

    -this is where you need to stop talking and think before you type or hit that send key!! are you kidding me dude? SERIOUSLY??? come on....im almost tempted to not even address that and give you ample time for a re-do!!!

    i sell red lasers. lasever sells red lasers. cni sells red lasers. melles griot sells red lasers. viasho sells red lasers. we ALL know that red 635, 650, 660 reds have TERRIBLE beams! but, if i take one of my 400mW red lasers and meter it, guess what it reads?? 400mW!!! (at least!) it doesnt read 150mW or 100mW or ANYTHING LESS than 400mW. if it reads less than 400mW....than it ISNT A GODDAMN 400mW RED LASER!!!!!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!! if it meters at 100mW....its a 100mw red laser. if it meters at 50mw...its a 50mw laser. are you taking notes here?? this is where you are SERIOUSLY fu*king yourself and PISSING the world off!! STOP TRYING TO CHEAT PEOPLE ON SYMANTICS AND WORD PLAY!!!!!!!!!!!! a 1.7 WATT red laser is supposed to be 1.7 WATTS. THATS IT!!! END OF STORY!!!! before optics, after optics, under optics, near a tree, on a monday, at high tide, or when the sun goes down...a 1.7 WATT laser is a 1.7 WATT Laser!!!!

    3. you wrote: "But why aren't those things pointed out? Because claiming fraud reads better?"

    do you REALLY want me to point out EVERYTHING else that you and your website and your staff had lied about?? do you REALLY want me to open up that can of worms?? or would you rather i just stick to what is being discussed here? (im hoping you choose the latter for your own sake...) hint...claims of FDA approved projectors.

    4. you wrote: "If the claim is, that we sell underpowered diodes (with blacked out power labels), then take the measurements at the diode, it should be easy to prove the diodes are underpowered, don't it? And with an open projector it is really not that much more complex to take the measurement at the diode."

    the measurements cant be taken ANYMORE "AT THE DIODE" than this:

    this is your 2 WATT CNI (NOT a CNI...its a laser century. and its USED!) laser. 2 WATTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    how much more "at the diode" can i get?? and what is your explanation for A LOSS OF 1,700mW of power??? is the air too thick at my house?? if that mirror i used was SANDPAPER...it should still reflect more than 1,700mW of "missing" light!!!

    5. you wrote: "There are mostly two theories on why we can sell cheap laser. One is that they are in fact underpowered. The other is we "tune up" the lasers, so they get enough power, but reducing the life time. It's hard to see how both can be true."

    from what i have seen and read and been witness to, i dont think EITHER are true!! you simply rip people off. your actual laser modules themselves are rated FINE. they probably perform for the most part...perfectly. HOWEVER....you charge people for a 3 WATT RGB laser and put in lasers that add up to 600mW. the lasers themselves are performing perfectly probably. in fact they probably perform ABOVE average. you just simply lie. instead of putting in a 1.5 WATT red laser, you put in a 300mW red laser. instead of putting in a 500mW green laser you put in a 200mW. instead of putting in 1W of blue, you put in 100mW. and whats happening now, is more and more and more and more people are catching on to what you have been doing for QUITE some time and youre all scrambling to come up with logical justifications. well, to "joe nightclub owner," those excuses may work. but with laserists and people who know even the littlest amount of laser theory, it is SO EXTREMELY evident what the REAL situation is. lying, deceit and fraud. (for the most part. i am not saying EVERYONE ever sold!! and i have said that before!)

    6. you wrote: "I'm just saying we are measuring different things"

    THAT PETER....is the FIRST 100% TRUE statement you have said YET!!

    I am measuring YOUR lasers and YOUR laser light. You are measuring..............................................????

    7. you wrote: "Oh, by the way, regarding the blacked out labels on the laser, if you buy lasers in larger numbers in China, lets say of 200mW lasers, they will have, for example, 200-250mW with a label stating something like >50mW"

    i buy large quantities of lasers form china. i have NEVER seen a black mark on ANY of my lasers. has ANYONE who ever bought a laserwave laser from me gotten a blacked out label...HONESTLY???

    and, wait a minute peter....i thought your lasers are FDA approved??? if that is the case then how are your lasers approved without proper labeling on the laser modules? Please familiarize yourself with 21 CFR PART 1040 before lying to customers about your "legal projectors!"

    i would REALLY like it if you could DIRECTLY address each of my statements/questions above. and please heed my warning...THINK before you type! if you are going to just try and bullshit us with some meter crap or fat beam crap..please, dont even respond and insult our intelligence!

    -Marc
    http://www.laserist.org/images/ildalogos/ILDA-logo_colored-beams_Corporate_150w.jpg

    ILDA- U.S. Laser Regulatory Committee

    Authorized Dealer for:

    • Pangolin Laser Software and Hardware
    • KVANT Laser Modules & Laser Systems
    • X-Laser USA
    • CNI Lasers
    • Cambridge Technology & Eye Magic Professional Scanning Systems

    FDA/CDRH Certified Professional LuminanceRGB Laser Light Show Systems


  9. #109
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    soforene is offline The Troll formerly known as Herbert Von Poople-Futtocks
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    Quote Originally Posted by White-Light View Post
    ...All the flaming thats going on gets no-one anywhere really.
    Au contraire.
    This thread serves to highlight what appalling service (and excuses) any potential customers of Laserworld would experience.

    Laserworld are yet to provide any solid evidence to back up their claims that they sell lasers which even meet the advertised spec.

    All this hooey about "we measure differently" may have some sway on a laser pointer forum but as we all know, this forum is inhabited by Big Boys (and Girls) who know a thing or two about lasers and aren't all mobile DJ's whose criteria when buying a projector is "Ooooh look how bright and shiny it is!" which just has to be Laserworlds target audience based on their current business model of treating all customers like Dickheads.

  10. #110
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    Pat B

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    Been there, done that, got the t-shirt & selling it in a garage sale.

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