Mounting lasers on stage

[Phritzler]

Hello!
Stands are really nice, but you should add trusses on the stands and hang up the projectors with half couplers like we do on our shows, becouse with that you are more flexible...
Mostly we do shows where are finished Stages (we say what we need before the stages are gonna planned/stand up) and got the place, so we mostly didn´t need own stands, only the halcouplers,etc. for hang up and safe the Projectors :

It was a bigger Location than it looks on the fotos, the projectors on the higher power level, 6 projectors (on the one Pic only runs 2).
http://img36.imageshack.us/i/bild1cm.jpg/

http://img30.imageshack.us/i/bild13la.jpg/

http://img4.imageshack.us/i/bild15m.jpg/
Greets,
Phil

[norty303]

UK health and safety law doesn't allow working from ladders except for the construction of scaffolding

Someone is misinterpreting the regs here.

There are many threads on the Blue Room forum in the rigging section about use of ladders and the reality of the regulations.

Doesn't the statement that using ladders for anything other than setting up scaffolding is illegal strike you as a little daft?

[DMills]

UK health and safety law doesn't allow working from ladders except for the construction of scaffolding.

Cite please!

My copy of the work at height regs says that ladders should only be used where the work of of short duration, and where work is not excessively heavy,not that they are only allowed for the construction of a scaffold structure.
Sure a tower is safer (and therefore preferred) but if you are just hanging a light on a truss then a ladder is a legal approach.

That said, in a one hour build, I would be very tempted to go totally self contained, it is often a much surer thing.

And yea, universities tend to have funny rules that would never fly in a commercial venue.

Regards, Dan.

[Doc]

Cite please!

My copy of the work at height regs says that ladders should only be used where the work of of short duration, and where work is not excessively heavy,not that they are only allowed for the construction of a scaffold structure.
Sure a tower is safer (and therefore preferred) but if you are just hanging a light on a truss then a ladder is a legal approach.

That said, in a one hour build, I would be very tempted to go totally self contained, it is often a much surer thing.

And yea, universities tend to have funny rules that would never fly in a commercial venue.

Regards, Dan.

Ladders are permitted for access and egress from your place of work, but they are not legal for the task we are talking about here.

This brings is one of those situations that can come back to bite you. Yes on the face of it, glancing through th PUWER regs it might seem that the use of ladders is permitted, but, and it's a big but (like J Lo) that old UK common law phrase will bite your arse once again; "when it is not reasonably practicable to use any other potentially safer means and the Risk Assessment shows that risks are low" (from WAH regs). I challenge you to stand up in court after you've just tried to carry a 60lb projector up a ladder using one hand, dropped it and killed somebody and explain to the judge that 1/ the risk was low! and 2/ portable access towers aren't available in Manchester yet.

In either case; you are scewed. like I've said before and I'll no doubt say again; UK law is largely based on common, not just statute law, this means that it is contencious and open to interpretation. The main phrase that you have to keep in mind is "so far as is reasonably practicable"

Is it reasonably practicable to grab any old ladder to save somebody from a burning building? I'd say yes. So would a judge.

Is it reasonably practicable to hire a portable ally tower for 38 quid to install heavy equipment at height? I'd say yes. So would a judge

I've mentioned a couple of lines from WAH regulations, you also need to consider PUWER regulations Workplace Health Safety and Welfare regs, Manual Handling regulations (they'll definately get you this one), the big overseeing one; The Health and Safety at Work Act (the statute law part) and no doubt several other regs that I haven't thought of.

This is why for our intents and purposes; ladders are only suitable for access and egress, anything else is unwittingly breaking the (very contencious) law.

In summary; it is legal until you have an accident, the you're screwed by common law.

Ian

[Doc]

Someone is misinterpreting the regs here.

There are many threads on the Blue Room forum in the rigging section about use of ladders and the reality of the regulations.

Doesn't the statement that using ladders for anything other than setting up scaffolding is illegal strike you as a little daft?

With all due respect; no, I'm not misinterpreting the regs, I am experienced with and Veritas trained for dealing with these regs on a daily basis.

That is my point; on the face of it you're not breaking any statute laws, but you are unwittingly breaking several H&S guidelines, which means that as soon as somebody gets injured or somebody's property gets damaged then you have broken amd will be charged under common law, which unfortunately means big fines, prison or both.

You can still end up in serious trouble for a "dangerous occurence" that is; somebody nearly got injured or somebody's proprty nearly got damaged!

The HSE have the power to stop the police from working.

[norty303]

So your statement that its illegal to use a ladder for anything other than putting up scaffolding isn't strictly true then? Just need to be clear for the benefit of other readers who may not be so up on H&S regs/guidelines as it's often the chinese whispers that lead to people saying daft things relate to H&S.

[platinum]

This reminds me of the times I've had to use a 30' A-frame ladder to rig projectors in a venue that has bouncy wooden floors.

Every time somebody walked near the ladder, I'd pitch in that direction.

SKETCHY! Ironically they can't have scissor lifts in there due to the floor.


I wonder what it would take for that venue to be in compliance with some of these UK laws...

-Jonathan

[mliptack]

Jonathan... what's wrong with rickety ol' A-frame ladders?

Honestly, I love them! The first time I was 40' in the air on an extension ladder (in a theater for a focus) the guys on the ground were telling me stories of when they put it up, but not high enough and when the guy was about half way up the flexing of the ladder caused it to slip off the I-beam and fall. Luckily they were between rows C and D and the seats caught the ladder. The guys fall was slowed by the ladder slowly breaking apart as it bent to the ground. He walked away.

Regardless, I think just a manlift doesn't always constitute as safe, just like Jonathan said. Sometimes you have to use a ladder at a particular venue because the weight of a lift (which are ungodly heavy).

-Max

[DMills]

The fact that that projector weighs 60Kg changes things somewhat as well, if I was rigging that off a fixed bar or truss you can bet the bugger would be going up on a block and tackle fixed above the hang position, with someone on the deck taking the weight while I did the clamps up.

And yep, RIDDOR probably gets honoured more in the breach then the observation when it comes to near misses.

I actually have a fixed grid in one venue at 8.5M above a semi sprung floor, that is a barrel of laughs to access (even the bloody scaffold tower wobbles). Unfortunately floor loadings are an issue because a self propelled boom would be just so lovely.

Regards, Dan.

[mixedgas]

If you ruled you could not use a ladder for any tasks in the US, the unions and industry both would attend your political funeral.

Steve

[mliptack]

If you ruled you could not use a ladder for any tasks in the US, the unions and industry both would attend your political funeral.

Steve

Haha thats what I was thinking. Any gig I do, I usually have a manlift, but ladders are tossed in with "Just in case."

There are just so many places where ladders work much better, especially when say, someone is in the manlift and needs help somehow. GRAB A LADDER!

[Stoney3K]

There are just so many places where ladders work much better, especially when say, someone is in the manlift and needs help somehow. GRAB A LADDER!

Everybody knows you're going to need to call the rental company at that point. "WE NEED ANOTHER MANLIFT, STAT!"

(Somehow I'd think it would be more prudent to call the fire department in such a situation, and gently ask them if they can bring a truck in...)

Somehow I also wonder what the H&S would say about venues that are too small or have no way of rolling in a Genie or scissor lift. Not every hall has double doors that are over 8ft tall and have level access or a ramp to the street. I've been lugging many a flightcase up stairs...

[mliptack]

Its funny you mention that. I work for a lighting company, about 2 months ago, while driving around my work my co-workers and I spotted a Fire Truck for sale! We thought, how perfect?!?! We could finish a focus in a few minutes with one of those. We could even replace the water tanks with Icee's, soda, and for after work beer!

Manlifts & Doors.... yeah that can be tricky, especially when the lift is too old to fold down the basket due to rust. Luckily we have a smaller non-self-propelled unit we use, that can just be tipped down albeit, it needs a few strong hands to do it.

I've been on many gigs when a manlift dies, and many times its not a pretty sight, work can come to a standstill, especially if it is blocking a vital traffic route. I've only seen one ladder break down! The fiberglass was cracked, we tossed it and bought a new one.

Manlifts are amazing, don't get me wrong, but I can count far too many times when I had to bring out a ladder to help someone in a manlift, or simply the job was easier to do with a ladder.

Finally 3K you said you had to lug many flightcases upstairs... I did a John Mayer gig, in wisconsin a few years ago. There was ONE small elevator (meant for guests - NOT equipment) in the building. On load out, one truck (of two 53' trailers) was about finished being loaded, when the elevator stopped working. (Luckily w/o equipment in it). Within about 10 minutes we had a system of ropes literally tossing road cases down 2 flights of stairs. Feeder cable, moving lights, speaker cabinets... you name it and it went flying down those stairs. It was quite a sight to see... pretty darn cool

Oh yeah, try stopping a case of 200' 4/0 feeder flying down stairs...

[JeroenVDV]

Somehow I also wonder what the H&S would say about venues that are too small or have no way of rolling in a Genie or scissor lift. Not every hall has double doors that are over 8ft tall and have level access or a ramp to the street

Event halls without double emergency doors?!

[Stoney3K]

Event halls without double emergency doors?!

I've had a few situations where the emergency doors were single, or where we had double doors but the doors were raised with respect to street level, and you needed to go down a few steps. But those venues are pretty small compared to the venues you're probably going to hang a multiwatt laser in.

In most venues such as exhibition halls, you've got enough access to wheel in your van, trailer or any piece of equipment (scissor, manift) you're going to need, though.

[JeroenVDV]

In most venues such as exhibition halls, you've got enough access to wheel in your van, trailer or any piece of equipment (scissor, manift) you're going to need, though.

That's what I mean. And most other locations like theatres, clubs etcetera either have their own Genie or a moveable grid. If I need to rig lasers I simply refuse to use a ladder.

[MICKEY S UK]

Very stable tripods.

[platinum]

Very stable tripods.

I haven't completely verified this yet, but I remember reading somewhere that tripods are not to be used -possibly even due to a certain CDRH regulation.

Personally, I'd never use them anyway as there are too many variables like people bumping into them or bass vibrations. Scaffolding all the way. I also like flying truss, but only for smaller lasers or perhaps a fiber-fed projector.

-Jonathan