Sensitive information section

[Doc]

With all the hoo har going on about Laserscopes at the moment and the (understandable) unwillingness for the gurus of this forum (namely Steve and Pat) to broadcast sensitive info; how about a trusted member section?

In other words; a section that one can only access after proving they are not a safety liability.

I know I don't own a scope and probably never will and if I did; I could no doubt PM said gurus for info. However I am an info sponge (the nature of the geek); always have been, and I enjoy reading about all sorts of things that I'm not actually involved in, including space travel, deep sea investigation, radical surgery etc etc, but more to the point; the very reason I am a member of this forum; I like to read about lasers!

Several times now I have been following a thread that comes to an abrupt end with "can't say here, I'll PM you"

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGG!!

Not a major thing but it does kind of defeat the object; a forum is somwhere that members can use as a reference for sharing info about the hobby that they love and partake in??

Ian

[daedal]

Well... as much as I would love to have this info, and really no one knows just how much info Steve & Pat have offered to people in PMs, the problem happens when an idiot decides to take this so called "sensitive information" and post a guide on YouTube.

It would be really cool to have something like that around here though, especially given the knowledge some members here have, that would very well help others who know what they're doing. Documenting it is probably the only way of preserving it, and perhaps giving these members some time to work on bigger/better things than guiding us newbies through all the little things we ask them about

--DDL

[Doc]

I'm not suggesting that we have a "how to" guide section, I'm suggesting that any queries about laserscopes etc could only be asked and answered in said section.

[norty303]

And who gets to decide who is worthy of access to this section and administrate it?

As a forum admin myself, these things oft get overlooked - someone will have to take on a significant amount of work to manage the ever changing user permissions. Post count wouldn't work because lots of posts don't imply knowledge, nor does length of time of forum.

[mophead]

I know I don't own a scope and probably never will and if I did; I could no doubt PM said gurus for info. However I am an info sponge (the nature of the geek); always have been, and I enjoy reading about all sorts of things that I'm not actually involved in, including space travel, deep sea investigation, radical surgery etc etc, but more to the point; the very reason I am a member of this forum; I like to read about lasers!

Several times now I have been following a thread that comes to an abrupt end with "can't say here, I'll PM you"

I agree fully Ian. I hate missing the information--eventhough I will most likely never have use for it.

Problem is: Who determines who is worthy? It tends to set an elitist attitude for the whole forum. Infact, one of the forums I used to admin had a secret/trusted subforum. It created a huge divide in the general membership so far that the trusted were refered to as "Negative Elitist Bastids".

[mixedgas]

First of All, Thank you for your concern.

capabilities exist in for another mode of dealing with .... But that is between me and Spec. Programmers are devious bastards who should be watched carefully at all times and kept in dark rooms with no televisions or computers and fed horse doodoo like mushrooms.

I cant talk about it here, but if you PM me......

I already hold back much more then I want to. But it has to be done. People get that data most of the time in PMs, if I can remember to PM them. And OFTEN I FORGET. While the idea of PL Top Secret is intriguging, on line communities have proven to be fragile and fragmentation is not healthy for them . Pats sick of the issue, and I'm growing increasingly intolerent. But, the system works, about NN people have called various branches of CDRH that I know of, and CDRH is appreciative. At least the industry and the hobby side can say "we warned you". better to locate some of the bad apples in this world and keep a eye on them to then to allow them to blunder off and blow up the world. There are quite a few illegal laserists who have came in from the dark side, and I and others have helped them get variances. (mental note, renew my expired personal vari, someone please remind me, I can run on corporate vari "B" if I needed to) Many of them say "once you get varied, you never want to go back".

Control of knowledge proliferation is something the US and UK is gonna have to wake up to, right now we are giving away the farm in long term finance and technology , and have given away the farm, in more ways then one. The origional intent was to level the field and keep most players a bit behind but happy, and with the end of the cold war, the capabilities for doing that have went away in the name of "Global competitiveness", ie the big wigs gaining short term power selling off the the work of the rest of us.

enough politics...

So right now, my vote is nyet on PL sekret squirrel, there has to be another way.

As for scope owners, subgroups can already exist in PL. Admission is a laserscope serial number plus a phone call to Pat or I or Buffo, might be one way.

But we all know how well the attempt of and the politics at the "Sound Card Dacing" subgroup worked, and it was a pain to deviate off the main threads to a subgroup. Since we now treat SCDers as equals, and help them as much as we can, in the long term the system worked. Please note the new "condensed" SCD post. And we lost a hell of a lot of good technical people when that happened, as well as many of our skilled hackers. We lost them to what the socialist bastards have a neat term for, a "Cult of Personality". I for one do not want to see that happen again.

I cant speak for Pat, but I still enjoy helping others and will find a way to continue to do so.

Right now, I'm aware of a ton of new ways of generating red and yellow, but if I post them a "Most unfavored nation" will make use of them and and the people that funded the R&D see didly squat for their efforts.

Get a better solution then codeworded lotus eater MK ultra magick enigma bullcrap... Yes, secrets need to be kept sometimes, and you need to walk softly and carry a big stick, but this is PL and its supposed to be educational , improve industry relations, and fun.

Steve

"The Information contained in this Post is for educational purposes only and is Copyright 2009 By O.S. Roberts. No warranty for its fitness is expressed or implied, use at your own risk. This information cannot be reproduced or translated outside of the Photon Lexicon web environment without the express non electronic written permission of Mr Roberts, This information is NOT subject to educational use copyright and All Rights Reserved"

PS Dammit, I'm gonna hate copying and pasting that each time. I like my freedom of expression.

[Doc]

Well I have a secret section in my own forum and one of the forums that I moderate has such a section. It doesn't cause any upset though as they are invisible to anybody that hasn't been "enrolled" (think Freemasons initiations, funny handshakes etc).

I'm guessing that there already is one

[buffo]

There is a private forum for people who have signed up for subscriptions on PL, but that isn't the place to post sensitive information, as anyone with $10 can sign up and read it. (Plus nothing of any substance gets posted there anyway - there are exactly 2 threads in the "benefactor lounge" area right now, one talking about banner ads that don't work, and the other consisting of a bunch of "hi there, I joined" messages.)

General information about how a Laserscope operates, the theory behind the Z-fold cavity, and precautions about first-pulse suppression have already been posted here, and this has lead to interesting discussions about these powerful (but dangerous) lasers. I don't see a problem with more posts along these lines.

On the other hand, information about bypassing interlocks, disabling the medical computer, or otherwise converting one of these units for light show use is definitely in the class of "things we probably shouldn't be talking about in public." For one, very few of us will ever own one, so there is limited utility to such a discussion.

Second, they *are* dangerous, even in the hands of an expert. (Remember Steve's story about one ramping to full power unexpectedly after idling for 20 minutes in "maintenance mode"?) In the hands of a beginner they are *very* dangerous, both to the laserist and to anyone near by. And words of encouragement posted on PL might be just enough to convince someone to start playing with one of these things, with potentially serious consequences. (Let's face it: If you don't fear these machines at least a little bit, you're not thinking clearly.)

Third, you are on shaky ground whenever you convert a medical unit to light show use, at least here in the US. Yes, it can be done legally, but I promise you the CDRH *hates* the fact that so many of these systems are out there. (They might hate it even more than you do, Pat! ) I'm not saying that they'd go after the guy that posted the details on how to do it, but they'd probably love to go after the guy who's actually modifying one... Do we really want to be seen as a group that aids that process?

No, I think we're better off avoiding these topics.

Oh, and finally - forget trying to copyright your posts. If you post it in a public forum, it's fair game and it *will* be quoted, parroted, and plagiarized. Better to send the information via PM to those few people who can truly (and safely) use it.

Adam

[mixedgas]

Third, you are on shaky ground whenever you convert a medical unit to light show use, at least here in the US. Yes, it can be done legally, but I promise you the CDRH *hates* the fact that so many of these systems are out there. (They might hate it even more than you do, Pat! )

POT, KETTLE, BLACK.

Inside joke, I know what Buffo's converting this week, but its not a Lscope...

Steve

[mixedgas]

[QUOTE=mixedgas;124936]Third, you are on shaky ground whenever you convert a medical unit to light show use, at least here in the US. Yes, it can be done legally, but I promise you the CDRH *hates* the fact that so many of these systems are out there. (They might hate it even more than you do, Pat! )

End Quote.

POT, KETTLE, BLACK.

Inside joke, I know what Buffo's converting this week, but its not a Lscope...

Steve

[mixedgas]

Well I have a secret section in my own forum and one of the forums that I moderate has such a section. It doesn't cause any upset though as they are invisible to anybody that hasn't been "enrolled" (think Freemasons initiations, funny handshakes etc).

I'm guessing that there already is one

Nope, there is a mindblowing software alternative, I but promised Admin.....

I am NOT A MEMBER OF ANY SECRET GROUP RELATED TO PL, EAGLE SCOUT'S WORD OF HONOR. And those who are Eagles (roughly .2% of Scouting makes it) know I would NOT abuse that one.

PS< I have a big personal beef with some of the Freemasons back home, so private clubs are OUT.

I guess we have to go to "Exigencies of the Service", and Pat has much stricter standards then I do.


Steve

[buffo]

POT, KETTLE, BLACK.
Inside joke, I know what Buffo's converting this week, but its not a Lscope...

Hehe... I had a feeling you would call me on that.

Though in fairness when I (eventually) fill out the laser product report, I'm going to list that laser as a Coherent I-60 (or I-90, if I ever get around to that part), and not as a "Medical 930". (Or 910 for the big one.) You'll also note that all the conversion info has been kept private.

And yes, even the I-90 is a lot safer than a Laserscope. Pulsed lasers scare me.

Adam

[Doc]

Fair comments.

I guess *if* a scope ever finds it's way in to my hands I'll just have to ask privately and nicely and follow all information to the letter (if offered).

I'll just have to learn to avoid all threads that look like they are headed towards a sensitive topic to avoid that AAAAAAAHHHHG effect.

I know I know; how do you keep an idiot in suspense?

You'll tell me tomorrow

[Laserman532]

1- I completely reject "GURU Status" I am just a guy who has been privileged enough to have been there, done that, got the t-shirt and am now selling it in a garage sale. (I am a legend in my own mind only) Today's technology, everyone of you surpass me greatly.

2- I would never be a member of a club that would have someone like me as a member. (some one else said it but I carry it as my motto) I loathe clubs, fraternities, secret societies, elite organizations, secret handshakes and anything that would fit vaguely into any of those categories. I was not aware of a "members only" area for PL...i'm kind of dumb that way.

3- My lack of tact may be slightly apparent, my post are sometimes blunt, my sarcasm hardly noticeable, my quest for the truth is at my core. Motto 2- you can candy coat dog shit...but it will still taste like dog shit. I have been called an arrogant a$$hole at times and thats others opinions, with me you get warts and all. I love subtle humor.

4- I strive for perfection, quality, integrity and excellence all of which I never achieve. I am amused and amazed when others don't try. This is very difficult on my children.

5- I impart information when I can, and avoid it when I feel it necessary. I have mastered very few technological hurdles in my career, but the ones I have, I cherish.

6- Style is not the way you pick your nose...it's where you put the booger.

7- I apologize for being me if I have offended anyone. Truly...I do...

"The Information contained in this Post is for educational purposes only and is Copyright 2009 By Pat Bishoff. No warranty for its fitness is expressed or implied, use at your own risk. This information cannot be reproduced or translated outside of the Photon Lexicon web environment without the express non electronic written permission of Mr Bishoff, This information is NOT subject to educational use copyright and All Rights Reserved"

[mixedgas]

[QUOTE=Laserman532;125018]1- I completely reject "GURU Status" I am just a guy who has been privileged enough to have been there, done that, got the t-shirt and am now selling it in a garage sale. (I am a legend in my own mind only) Today's technology, everyone of you surpass me greatly.


And as I told a Gentleman who called me a "god" on the phone the other night, I'm human, and I believe in God with a big G, the origin of the term, so I cannot be a god when I believe in God and try to be humble before him. I have had problems with the humble thing lately, gotta work on that.

Now, since I do not like getting stoned, note I did not say Jeh*&a

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk

So like Pat said, lets knock it off with the laser god crap ok? I'm a lousy little worm in the grand universe scheme of things.

Steve

[flecom]

You'll also note that all the conversion info has been kept private.

why? how is that Ar/Kr significantly more dangerous than a 5w DPSS?

I am asking seriously because the secret squirrel stuff here has been getting old

[mixedgas]

why? how is that Ar/Kr significantly more dangerous than a 5w DPSS?

I am asking seriously because the secret squirrel stuff here has been getting old

At 5 watts they are about equal in power. The i60 is actually 3 watts. The secret part is the modification to the medical PSU, at the request of my medical friend who got me the data. When medical engineers volunteer useful stuff like that we generally have to protect them as often each engineer has date/time stamped schematics etc. The Other reason is the proliferation of people who try to fix medical systems but are not biomedical qualified to install and certify them for work on patients. For example, courtesy of a friend , I have almost everything medical ion ever made in schematics, but I'm asked not to post them on the FTP for the simple reason that if someone attempts a cheesy repair and it goes wrong, a patient gets hurt.

SO, you can see why KTP is a issue, can you see why posting a current DPSS eye surgery laser is a issue? I mean my data and schematics collection fills a wall. I'd love to have it scanned in (I cant afford to scan about 2000 8x11s) and post it, but there are safety rules, copyright/IP rules, and cost issues.

Ethics can suck some times.

Steve

[buffo]

all the conversion info has been kept private

why? how is that Ar/Kr significantly more dangerous than a 5w DPSS?

The light output isn't more dangerous. (In fact, it's less dangerous, since it's only 3 watts, and there's no chance of any coherent IR being present with the I-60.)

However, one could argue that a water-cooled tube (and power supply) with 215 volts DC at 35 amps does present a bit of an electrical hazard. Still, that's not why the conversion info was kept private.

The real reason is partially what Steve mentioned, but there is more to it than just protecting the med tech who supplied the info. Converting medical gear over to show-ready condition is a long process that absolutely *must* be done correctly. (Because of this, it's actually a questionable practice as far as the CDRH is concerned.)

I'm confident that I'll get it right (with considerable help from Steve and Bruce, among others). But there's no way I can condense over 6 hours of phone calls and dozens of PM's into a single post that explains the entire process.

Even if I could - who would benefit? Does anyone here own a Coherent 930 medical argon unit? (Well, besides Matt, Mo, and myself?) So why clutter the forums with a bunch of detailed information that won't apply outside of this one unit? Especially if there's a good chance that I might miss something?

Oh, I'll post an overview once I'm finished. (Yes, complete with pictures!) I'll even be willing to discuss the general process. But getting down to "the wire from pin 5 connects to terminal strip B" is not going to happen.

I am asking seriously because the secret squirrel stuff here has been getting old

If you ever lay your hands on a 930, I'll be happy to spend lots of time on the phone with you, explaining what I've done so far (and what I still need to do) to make it work. That goes for anyone on PL, assuming that 1) they know how to listen, and 2) they are willing to be safe. I've actually typed up most of my notes for reference, and I'd be willing to share those as well, to people who are wise enough to double-check everything on their own in case I've made a mistake.

But I completely respect Pat's reluctance to share more information about converting a laserscope to show use. Once you post detailed information, people with otherwise grossly insufficient knowledge will read it and think that a post or two is all they need to guide them through the process. But since they don't have any real experience, they don't have a clue what they're getting into. And that's when accidents happen. Pat doesn't want that on his shoulders. (Not to mention the damage to the industry as a whole when such an accident occurs.)

Here's another example: Remember the schematic for my interlock circuit that I posted back in February? Several people have contacted me about it, asking how to modify it in one way or another to suit their projector, and I've been only too happy to assist them. But I've also gotten PM's from people that can't read a schematic and don't know the difference between a transistor and a relay. Yet they want to use my design to make their projector CDRH-ready so they can go do shows...

This puts me in a difficult position. On the one hand, I want to help them make their projector safer, but on the other hand, I didn't join PL to be a basic electronics teacher for every new member who is too lazy to do some studying on his own before asking questions. Hand-holding only goes so far...

And then there's the legal aspect. While it's certainly a long shot, I don't want someone claiming that I designed their projector interlock, which then failed, causing an injury. It might be that they missed a crucial detail. Or maybe I didn't explain something to their satisfaction. But if they can't read a schematic, what am I supposed to do? Now I've got to defend myself?

This is a small example of the much larger dilemma that Pat and Steve are facing re: laserscopes.

Adam

PS: I should point out that the couple of folks I'm currently dealing with re: my interlock schematic are good people, and I do not mean to imply that any of them are being referenced in my rant above. It was earlier in the year that I had some people that I had to turn away because they lacked sufficient knowledge to assemble the circuit correctly.

[flecom]

215 volts DC at 35 amps does present a bit of an electrical hazard.

hehe, you would be surprised at the things I have played with

but ya between your and Steves explanation I understand where you guys are coming from now

I wonder if they still have any of those lasers you got left... I keep thinking about them... but then I think of the power bill... and water... and... well... etc... lol

[buffo]

If you really want one, get in touch with Daedal. He can put you in touch with the guy you need to talk to.

They are *heavy* as hell. Like 450 pounds heavy. But after you strip them down, what's left isn't too bad. You still need to build a new case though, among other things.

With any luck, I'll have one working by early spring...

Adam

[flecom]

If you really want one, get in touch with Daedal. He can put you in touch with the guy you need to talk to.

They are *heavy* as hell. Like 450 pounds heavy. But after you strip them down, what's left isn't too bad. You still need to build a new case though, among other things.

With any luck, I'll have one working by early spring...

Adam

problem is if its at astro then I will probably also buy at least $100 in connectors/stainless hardware/transformers/pots etc

but seriously thats a pretty big time/water/electricity/space commitment... I gotta think about that one

[buffo]

Astro-Too is out of them. We bought everything they had. But Space Coast Lasers said they have more. Not sure if they've got more of the 930's or not, but for sure they have other stuff available.

Yeah, electrical power is a bitch. Most of the I-60 units are 3 phase 208, but I'm hoping to mod my PSU to run single phase. Even so it will probably still draw around 35 amps from the wall. Then there's the 2 GPM of water you need. Might be able to put together a closed-loop recirculator though - been mulling it over trying to decide if it's worth the effort or not.

Adam

[daedal]

but seriously thats a pretty big time/water/electricity/space commitment... I gotta think about that one

Oh... but the reward is so worth it!

At ~2W safe CW runtime for hours, you'll probably get ~1W of usable blue...

Last time I checked that was... >10K

And don't ignore the green either

--DDL

[Laserman532]

Astro-Too is out of them. We bought everything they had. But Space Coast Lasers said they have more. Not sure if they've got more of the 930's or not, but for sure they have other stuff available.

Yeah, electrical power is a bitch. Most of the I-60 units are 3 phase 208, but I'm hoping to mod my PSU to run single phase. Even so it will probably still draw around 35 amps from the wall. Then there's the 2 GPM of water you need. Might be able to put together a closed-loop recirculator though - been mulling it over trying to decide if it's worth the effort or not.

Adam

re circulator??? a sp running similar to those parameters needs to dissipate close to 13KW sooooooo thats a good size chiller. I can get you half way there...I have an affinity 6KW that will soon go on the blocks...now you would just have to find another one

[mixedgas]

I have a friend that has 60 Lexel 85 SVG heads in stock 1-2 watts , most shipping higher then two. first customers get the hotter tubes He can build the PSU into the head, so it runs off 220, single

designed to do 500 mW of 488 and 500 mW of 514, tem00 for 8000 hours.
The other lines are gravy on top. Yes, they are polarized.

Let me know if your interested.

Steve