Laser Show Non Variance for High School Need Info

[f22warzone]

Hey, I have been asked by a friend if I wanted to do a laser show for a school dance type thing as he is the DJ for the event.

The problem is I do not have my variance yet but I am working on my product report and the rest of my laser safety devices one of the only things I am missing would be the shutter and enclosure

I have been doing searches and so far have only come up with one good post.

The event will be non profit and there will be no exchange of money at all as its all free and stuff. surprising as I thought school dances cost admission but lucky this school is nice and its more of a favor thing so there is no exchange of money.

After reading it appears that the CHDR has no regulation over this and there for a variance is not needed but there is still the threat of being sued if somebody complains that were hit by a laser…. I will mount the laser with the proper 3m high 2.5m from side position and make sure for no beams into the audience with use of a mask.

I Really want to do this show as I love showing off my laser projector and its fun for me but the fact that I don’t have a variance worries me to if my readings have been correct

Any information on this will be greatly appreciated.



The Show starts in 4 hours so kinda on a time line


Thank you

Michael

[Laserman532]

Hey, I have been asked by a friend if I wanted to do a laser show for a school dance type thing as he is the DJ for the event.

The problem is I do not have my variance yet but I am working on my product report and the rest of my laser safety devices one of the only things I am missing would be the shutter and enclosure

I have been doing searches and so far have only come up with one good post.

The event will be non profit and there will be no exchange of money at all as its all free and stuff. surprising as I thought school dances cost admission but lucky this school is nice and its more of a favor thing so there is no exchange of money.

After reading it appears that the CHDR has no regulation over this and there for a variance is not needed but there is still the threat of being sued if somebody complains that were hit by a laser…. I will mount the laser with the proper 3m high 2.5m from side position and make sure for no beams into the audience with use of a mask.

I Really want to do this show as I love showing off my laser projector and its fun for me but the fact that I don’t have a variance worries me to if my readings have been correct

Any information on this will be greatly appreciated.



The Show starts in 4 hours so kinda on a time line


Thank you

Michael

well you have to ask yourself just one question...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0-oi...eature=related

[dsli_jon]

Hey Michael -

The problem is I do not have my variance yet ...
After reading it appears that the CHDR has no regulation over this and there for a variance is not needed

Short answer (since you've only got 4 hrs..) -

#1, if it is over 5mW, you need a Variance to legally do a show in public, paid or not.

#2, If (as your profile suggests) you are (and therefore, this gig) is is Texas, you are also supposed-to (by your States' law) be registered with them / have a License from them, in-addition-to your FDA-issued Variance, to perform shows in public, again, paid or not.

And, sorry if you may have gotten any advice from an ill-informed DJ out here in Cali but yes, the FDA / CDRH has plenty of 'jurisdiction' in this case. The public is the public, period.

Later, when you have time, here is a very helpful, clear repository from the FDA with all the regs and guidance:

http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-Emittin.../ucm118907.htm

..specifically, this PDF is helpful (as a 'summary' of the regs, etc...)

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Medical.../UCM119257.pdf

Nothing I've ever read from them suggests that for 'non-profit' or 'edu-setting' shows, you're 'exempt'. The only 'exemption' is if you're under 5mW (or, as some will, I'm sure point-out, using something like the Chauvet 10mW 'FatBeam' systems, that 'meet' that restriction by 'spreading out' the beam over a larger surface-area..)

Hope this helps.
peace...
j

[f22warzone]

Not what i wanted to hear but that's what I wanted to know.

Thanks looks like i will not help a friend out....

"be registered with them / have a License from them,"

I have never heard of that part where did you find that at?

[dsli_jon]

Hey Michael -

Not what i wanted to hear but that's what I wanted to know.

...Yeah, know the feelin' - sux, but 'dems da beans...

I have never heard of that part where did you find that at?

http://search.dshs.state.tx.us/searc...put=xml_no_dtd

I'll post the specific forms for ya in a jiffy..
j

PS - you can also PM / chat with your 'neighbor' there, Tim Walsh http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...80-LaserWizard - he just *might* know a thing or two about the State regs...

OK, Reg overview page:

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/radiation/laser.shtm

Regs PDF (laser show req's are on Page 301-10..) :

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/radiatio...01fn_10_08.pdf

..and Laser Registration app, PDF:

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/radiatio...DF/RC301-2.pdf

..when we did ours, I remember there was one more form - something like a 'Business Info Registration' form in-addition-to the Laser-Registrations...probably for your 'setting' that would not be needed, but they'd have the 'last word' on that...

...Sorry if that puts the K-Bosh on your gig, but like I said, demz da beans...
peace..
j

[f22warzone]

wow that's a lot of useful information .... thank you : )

[mixedgas]

wow that's a lot of useful information .... thank you : )

Call Tim, see if he can help you out...

http://www.laserspectacles.com/


Schools do have some sort of vague exception, I have heard that from the horses mouth, but if your not a student or staff there, why risk it. If you do decide to run, 3 meters up 2 meters horizontal, and a mask in front of the projector..
An argument can be made that if admission is charged for the dance,....
This is a problem with vague 1960-70-80s laws that have not adapted to the year 2000
Steve

[buffo]

The heart of the issue is the "commerce" clause. If you can be seen as entering the laser projector into commerce in any way (even "indirect" commerce, which is unbelievably broad), then the CDRH has jurisdiction.

The one major exception is a church. They are by definition outside the world of commerce (well, so long as they don't start charging admission to attend a church function!), so they get a pass. But schools are a bit more vague, because they sometimes do charge for things.

I've spoken with the CDRH personally on this issue, and you could tell they really didn't want to answer the question. In the end, they agreed that a free classroom demonstration in a public school would probably be legal without a variance (but still was not recommended). A "dance" was right in the middle of the gray area though, since typically there is an admission charge for dances. And even if there isn't an admission charge, they're going to try to claim commerce anyway because no doubt someone will be selling soft drinks and such at the dance. (There's your "indirect commerce".)

And Pat's point is probably the best one in this thread. (Do you feel lucky?) Because even if you "get away" with doing the show without a variance, there is still the chance that something will go wrong. If you don't have an enclosure or a shutter on your projector yet, then it's really not ready to use in public, is it? It's not that the chance of failure is high, it's that the *cost* of such a failure is high. (This is the same reason why the Blue Angel's don't rehearse their routines above downtown Los Angeles. Sure they almost never crash, but if they ever did crash into the city, lots of people would be hurt or killed. Thus the chance of failure is low, but the cost of failure is unacceptable, particularly when it's so preventable.)

It's a tough pill to swallow, I know. But you might have some options still open to you. As Steve already mentioned, if you can contact a laserist who already has a variance, perhaps you can convince him to help you out for this one-time event. (Worth asking, anyway...)

Adam

[dsli_jon]

Schools do have some sort of vague exception,

...but for a dance?? Classroom / demos, I can see, but a gymnasium show-gig, paid or not? Better safe than sued...

peace..
j

Michael - can you rig a shutter / attenuate the output with a filter to 5mW-ish in time? Enclosure-wise, you can use aluminum 'black-wrap' - most pro photo stores should have it...
You could also prolly get some density-filters there, to attenuate your output... What kind of laser power IS your rig, anyway?

[sugeek]

The state of Texas requires a permit for laser shows, so even if you had the paperwork done you need an expensive permit too.

-Adam