This table can help:
Senior Member
Senior Member
You can say a lot about the maximum exposure, but that is all about the beam *originating* from the laser projector.
Even then, it still depends on quite a number of factors if a beam can be seen by an audience clearly. If there is LOTS of fog in the air, you might need a few dozen mW for something cool (but safe) in the audience, but if there is little to no fog in the air, forget it and go for scanning over the audience instead.
Don't forget that a lot of venues these days don't want fog machines inside anymore, because of the risk of triggering fire alarms. That, combined with the MPE rules as they are drafted now, could be quite a blow to the European laser show industry.
Why do we audience scan anyway? That's because when there's a laser show going on, people will try everything to *touch* the beams. Sure, you can scan 10ft over everyones heads, but even then, there will still be idiots who climb on top of each other and reach for the 3W show up above, with all risks involved.
On the other hand, this may also keep doofi from playing Lightsaber with a 300mW green pointer in the clubs, and maybe people will consider moving to more graphics-heavy shows instead of beams.
Senior Member
Well, speaking for the UK's HSE, I don't think the people 'enforcing' the laws have to prove anything. As with most H & S stuff nowadays it's up to you (the business) to provide the proof the show was done safe. You may get away with it until such time as a letter from a lawyer lands on your doorstep or the HSE team turn up at your club. At that point the onus is on *you* to prove that your show was safe at a particular time/event.Originally Posted by smogthemog
If you do not have the relevant documentation available to back up your claim that the show was within limits I guess the HSE or lawyers are going to have a field day. It's important to realise that the HSE can go directly after the Director's/owners of companies and prosecute them personally.
Imagine if the HSE turn up at your club following a complaint from a punter that his eyes have been damaged. They ask to see your calculations for the laser show... You don't even possess a suitable meter for taking measurements or any paperwork showing calculations have been made. How on earth can you offer a defence?
As I see it, suitable records will need to be kept along with readings and calculations for the entire laser show. The venue (or operator) will need to possess a suitable meter that is capable of taking accurate readings so they can prove their show is/was safe. I guess this could be done by a competent installation engineer at the time of installation provided that it wasn't possible to alter the effects in any way once the installation had been completed. They would of course need to supply the venue with documentation to back up their claims and have suitable insurance in place.
I see an opening for a freelance safety officer who can visit clubs and provide the neccessary calculations and documentation. I also see a need for password protected software so that it isn't possible for an operator to change the output power, change/add effects or alter BAM's etc.
Jem
Quote: "There is a theory which states that if ever, for any reason, anyone discovers what exactly the Universe is for and why it is here it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another that states that this has already happened.”... Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001
Senior Member
I don't see how they can. Surely any laserist who sees an official walking into a club with measuring equipment is going to alter the BAM immediately before any measurement can be taken.
I'm sure with the right programmable keyboard you could even hot key a change so a simple tap on a key would alter the BAM without further intervention.
I still think here all that would happen is the laserist will make 2 sets of calcualtions - one to MPE and one to whatever level they're going to run. They run the latter but if anything goes wrong, produce the former. Any arguments over brightness levels - there was a lot of fog in the air, the cameras used to record it over emphasise the brightness.
All I see with the new legislation is that its MORE likely clubs will perform illegally, which makes it more likely they will run their own power levels than adhere to ILDA's relatively safe 10x MPE level.
Audiences simply won't stand for dim lasers in Europe and most want to be scanned which means for clubs the pressures on. Give the audience what they want or lose their customers to other clubs.
As for a £20,000 fine. OK its a lot of money but on bigger events, that could just be one night's profit. Cheaper to take the very slight risk of being caught and pay it than lose you audience that produces £20,000 event after event.
As I see it there are ways around this law but it really has put the cat amongst the pigeons in the wrong sense so far as safety is concerned and is more liekly to cause law beaking than before. As I said previously, it would have been far better for the law to have been framed in terms of whatever level is recommended as the safe maximum by ILDA. At least that way employees would have been protected to the same level as audiences and levels wouldn't be set that encourage all standards to simply be disregarded which is what I fear will happen now.
Senior Member
It will be up to the club/venue/operator to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the show was safe. Taking this to the extreme, if, during a visit by the HSE, the projector was assessed as having 'variable' output or in other words capable of exceeding the MPE. I think you would be on an uphill struggle to offer a defence in court if the HSE decided to prosecute. Don't ever underestimate the powers of the HSE, they're not at all stupid and will call in 'experts' if they don't have the necessary knowledge themselves.
Imagine you're a club who have a visit from the HSE, they come armed with someone of the calibre of James Stewart or John O'Hagan et al. Do you think for a minute they would be fooled by two sets of paperwork or a programmable keyboard... I think not.
I'm not being alarmist here, i'm just playing Devil's advocate
Clubs/venues/operators will continue to do as they please and I don't think the new laws will really change anything... Yet. What will happen is that the HSE will look for a high profile prosecution and that will then set a precedent for all future cases. Would you want to be that first case and be made an example to others? I know I wouldn't, but I guess that's the way it will happen.All I see with the new legislation is that its MORE likely clubs will perform illegally, which makes it more likely they will run their own power levels than adhere to ILDA's relatively safe 10x MPE level.
Audiences simply won't stand for dim lasers in Europe and most want to be scanned which means for clubs the pressures on. Give the audience what they want or lose their customers to other clubs.
As for a £20,000 fine. OK its a lot of money but on bigger events, that could just be one night's profit. Cheaper to take the very slight risk of being caught and pay it than lose you audience that produces £20,000 event after event.
As I see it there are ways around this law but it really has put the cat amongst the pigeons in the wrong sense so far as safety is concerned and is more liekly to cause law beaking than before. As I said previously, it would have been far better for the law to have been framed in terms of whatever level is recommended as the safe maximum by ILDA. At least that way employees would have been protected to the same level as audiences and levels wouldn't be set that encourage all standards to simply be disregarded which is what I fear will happen now.
Jem
Quote: "There is a theory which states that if ever, for any reason, anyone discovers what exactly the Universe is for and why it is here it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another that states that this has already happened.”... Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001
Senior Member
So thats just about any decent laser projector then...Taking this to the extreme, if, during a visit by the HSE, the projector was assessed as having 'variable' output or in other words capable of exceeding the MPE.
Even little ones are capable of exceeding MPE in the right circumstances, but it's how we control them thats relevant.
Effectively a series of measurements that lead to some form of attenuation so that it matches what is written on our paperwork as being calculated as safe (by a variety of available methods)
Why bother producing 2 sets of paperwork anyway, you only want a safe one.... whether what you are projecting actually matches that is largely irrelevant it seems, as it's so hard to prove at a given point in time.
I agree with the previous comment - it was hard enough trying to maintain 1 standard for laserists to work to, now there are varying levels for employees and punters, and no cohesive direction or consultation with advisory bodies.
The beaurocrats need to get their act together...
Senior Member
So thats just about any decent laser projector then...
Tch tch, sarcasm won't get you anywhere
As I said... "Taking this to the extreme..."
I guess that's the ultimate 'control measure'?, having a projector that cannot output over the MPE. That's probably the only guaranteed way of being able to prove you didn't exceed the MPE
Jem
Quote: "There is a theory which states that if ever, for any reason, anyone discovers what exactly the Universe is for and why it is here it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another that states that this has already happened.”... Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001
Senior Member
I think the new laws are a good thing and could go a long way to helping the industry.
One problem we face is that more and more venues are installing lasers, therefore cutting down available work for lasershow companies.
But more importantly, they are buying lasers from auction sites with no knowledge of what these devices are capable of and then pointing them at people. I have been to numerous clubs that have ceilings so low you can touch them and then have lasers in each corner, probably in the region of 300mw. There is nothing stopping a drunken clubber from peering into the aperture and that is their life ruined. But even if everybody kept away from the apertures, 300mw in a venue that size is not comfortable to view and certainly not safe. I'm amazed there haven't been more accidents in places like this.
At the end of the day, they bought the laser online from a seller who is just a retailer and not a laserist, so that seller also has no knowledge of the safety aspect.
So I think the new laws will help stamp out rogue sellers and leave the laser side of things to laserists who know what they are doing.
Just my 2p
Mark
Senior Member
the second paragraph - i was asking about exceeding MPE 10x but having the signed documentation with measurements of up to MPE... like you have the proof or the necessary papers but during a show you cheat and you put in more power - now how to prove that?
the first paragraph - yes you prove with the measurements that the show was safe, now it's up to the inspectors to prove you didn't follow what you signed, this would require a trained inspector with necessary tools on every event
Senior Member
As I said before, the people 'enforcing' the laws don't really have to prove anything. The burden of proof will almost certainly fall on the Club/Venue/Operator. I guess it will ultimately be up to a Judge and a panel of expert witnesses to decide whether or not your control measures and the documentation provided were sufficient.the second paragraph - i was asking about exceeding MPE 10x but having the signed documentation with measurements of up to MPE... like you have the proof or the necessary papers but during a show you cheat and you put in more power - now how to prove that?
the first paragraph - yes you prove with the measurements that the show was safe, now it's up to the inspectors to prove you didn't follow what you signed, this would require a trained inspector with necessary tools on every event
Quote: "There is a theory which states that if ever, for any reason, anyone discovers what exactly the Universe is for and why it is here it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another that states that this has already happened.”... Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001
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