New EU directives making scanning over MPE 'illegal'. Discuss

[QUAZAR]

If you had show parameters programmed into a PC and a USB memory stick containing "another set" of parameters/frames, it would be almost impossible to prove a show was "over the limit".

I wonder what Hugo will do at the big Dutch raves when this becomes law over there? I cant see many of those clubbers being happy at loosing the visual effect of being scanned with lasers of a reasonable brightness.

[Jem]

If you had show parameters programmed into a PC and a USB memory stick containing "another set" of parameters/frames, it would be almost impossible to prove a show was "over the limit".

As a club owner it would be up to *you* to ensure that this scenario could not happen. If it were able to happen your control measures would proably be deemed not to have been sufficient. Maybe HSE would say you should have isolated all external access to the control unit

[Doc]

I think there is a bit of unecessary hysteria here. If you read the statement from the HSE, it states that as long as you are performing risk assessments the changes are unlikely to affect you.

[Jem]

I think there is a bit of unecessary hysteria here. If you read the statement from the HSE, it states that as long as you are performing risk assessments the changes are unlikely to affect you.

As I said previously, I was simply playing Devil's advocate. However, that being said, I do think that there is a general ignorance as to how the HSE operates these days.

[JStewart]

A couple of points arising from this interesting discussion.

Firstly the title of the thread may be a bit misleading or alarmist, with the ‘illegal’ reference. But I suppose, it helps make those with an interest more tempted to have a look in on it.

But just for clarification, audience scanning is not being made illegal. It is the limit at which you can expose workers to that is being more strictly defined; this being the ELV listed in the AORD document itself (but the same as the more familiar MPE used in the product standards such as EN 60825-1:2007 etc). For the first time these become legally binding limits

As far as HSE (one of the enforcement agencies here in the UK) are concerned, I’m not aware of any plans to go targeting businesses after April 27th to ‘catch people out’. And in reality this is unlikely to be the case in future, unless there is a high profile incident.

The original reason I bought this important new piece of European legislation to people’s attention on here is just to make people aware of the new situation, especially if the only advice they are getting on MPE/ELV is the 10x MPE proposal from ILDA.

In my experience I’ve yet to see any laser provider in the UK perform 10x MPE scanning. Here at least, it is all either, no scanning, 1x MPE scanning, or ‘don’t care’ scanning. (lots of the latter ☺)

The latter concerns me the most, as some providers start to use 10W+ lasers to point into people’s faces at distances less than 20m, especially using slow moving finger beam effects. But there you go.

Back to the limits and the enforcement thereof, Jem is quite right in that we are pretty much self regulated here, with only a few local authorities taking a very active or direct interest laser show exposure levels. He is also right in saying that HSE or a personal injury claimant does not have to prove the show was unsafe, for if questioned the burden of proof falls on the accused party to prove their installation was safe (yes, sounds odd, with ‘innocent until proven guilty’ etc, but H&S law is different in this respect). It actually gets even easier for a personal injury claim, for the Courts only need to be satisfied on the ‘balance of probability’.

I’ve spoken to several venues about 10x MPE scanning, explaining the relatively low risk it poses. But the response has been unanimous that they would not allow it to take place. Before the mention of the ‘mandatory’ limits, they were not interested in going 10x above the ‘recommended’ limits. Now the law is being more specific on this, their appears to be even less interest in entertaining the idea. ☹

I know some venues won’t allow any scanning, even if it is possible to illuminate an audience below the MPE, and prove it. The reason being is that they don’t want the problems of operators turning the power up after the inspection has taken place, or have to take subjective decisions as to who is good operator or not. I can fully understand this position too.

But this subject should not all be viewed as being so bad. In reality, for the responsible operator, it changes very little. And as some have pointed out already, it may even help to improve the sector, when clients start to realise they are putting themselves at risk by not employing a knowledgeable laser show provider, and instead cutting corners buying from eBay and the like.

The flow diagram on page 18 of HS(G)95 is a good starting point and goes a good way satisfying compliance of the Control of Artificial Optical Radiation at Work Regs, as long as you consider it for the lifecycle of the display. So that means planning and installation stage, as well as the actual performance itself.

James Stewart

[Doc]

Yes, the HSE's powers are greater than the police's, however in all of my dealings with them (lots), just about all of the "health and safety has gone mad" type rules and stories that you hear are not caused by the HSE. They are caused by "jobsworth" type individuals adding their own twists and interpretations to the by and large common sense rules. Ala: the ladder rule.

The government says that ladders should only be used to gain access to a working platform or for simple tasks that can be performed with one hand; the construction industry interprets that as it being illegal to even draw a picture of a ladder unless you are wearing a safety harness, life jacket and condom.

[JStewart]

Doc,

You are exactly right with all the H&S nonsense. Most of what we hear about is utter nonsense, and mostly untrue. The media is just as much to blame as the nerdy guy in the hi-vis jacket who says no. Christmas Lights being banned - Wrong. Conkers banned in the school playground - Wrong, and as you say, all the myths that surround ladder use.

Good H&S is not about saying no, but about finding practical solutions when necessary. But all too often it is used as bad excuse to put a stop something.

James

[Jem]

The government says that ladders should only be used to gain access to a working platform or for simple tasks that can be performed with one hand; the construction industry interprets that as it being illegal to even draw a picture of a ladder unless you are wearing a safety harness, life jacket and condom.

HaHa, ... life jacket and a condom, that makes me smile. However, there is an element of seriousness to this, in so much as if said company has an employee that has an accident with a ladder, you can guarantee said company will be pretty much safe from prosecution because of their control measures. this is one of the 'sad' sides of self regulation, everyone is being over protective.

In such a litgious society where everyone is prepared to 'have a go' at getting compensation for even so much as stubbing their big toe you can't blame companies for trying to protect themselves. O.K., so it makes life a litte more difficult for their employees, but at least they (and the Directors personally) are fairly safe from risk of prosecution.

Sadly, I personally am one of the people who have been accused of going over the top with 'protecting' our employees. We have hearing protection, eye protection, skin protection and pretty much everything else protection. The employees don't particularly like it, but I know as a company I am comfortable that we are doing everything possible to protect our employees from harm, and have therefore minimised the risk of our company been prosecuted. Yes, the employees complain, but would they hesitate to try prosecuting us using a no win no fee lawyer if they hurt themselves and hadn't had protection provided for their use?, no they wouldn't, everyone seems to want compensation for even a minor injury these days, that's the root of the problem.

Jem

[mccarrot]

Imagine if the HSE turn up at your club following a complaint from a punter that his eyes have been damaged. They ask to see your calculations for the laser show... You don't even possess a suitable meter for taking measurements or any paperwork showing calculations have been made. How on earth can you offer a defence?


Jem

Is the simplified method (unmodulated static beams at 10mW/cm2 when using a proper scanfail) enough proof, or do you need to do the calculations?

[Jem]

Is the simplified method (unmodulated static beams at 10mW/cm2 when using a proper scanfail) enough proof, or do you need to do the calculations?

I guess my non-committal answer to that would be... Do *you* feel that the evidence *you* have put together would be sufficient to protect *you* from being found guilty in a court of law when faced with a barrage of questions from the prosecution Lawyer?

In the UK, the ILDA recommendations are just that - they are recommendations only, they are not written into statute. As far as the *Law* is concerned I guess full calculations may be necessary to provide any sort of defence. However, i'm no expert. I speak simply from an employers point of view who is trying to protect his company, albeit in a completely different industry to that of lasershows. I just tend to apply what I have learned in my own industry from a health and safety point of view.

Jem