Safety Guidelines for would-be builders of projectors

[3ricj]

Stoney,

I would publish my product report but my sometimes partner says its IP and I can't. I understand why, it only took us more then a year and lotsa time, money, and phone calls to get a clue as to how to get it right..

Things evolve and change all of the time. 'secrets of the trade' on laser displays seems to sadly include safety. Imagine for a moment if firearms dealers had the same sort of policies. But things change. Take programming microprocessors as an example. This used to take major hacking, money, books, programming skills, etc. Enter arduino. I've taught a 9 year old girl how to make a rc servo motor swing around, and leds blink. And she wrote the code. The open state of things such as that are complete game changers. They enable people to do things they otherwise would have not be able to do on that scale. This is what powered the industrial revolution.

From one standpoint, the game of laser displays has already changed drastically in the past 10 years. $10k gas lasers? no, try $100 diodes with more power. $6k galvos? try $100 galvos. CPU power? ditto. Sadly, due to the availability of such devices, we have a massive inrush of people with little experience building stuff. You said yourself that it took lots of time money and energy to build a product. Wouldn't it of been awesome if you didn't have to spend that money? Sadly, the folks with years of experience sometimes only share: "It's not safe! my stuff is safe, damn kids!"

The game has changed. Not publishing product development tips to enable safe operation of these low cost devices only hurts the industry, IMHO. We can't stop the purchase or building of these things. But we CAN helpfully publish information which helps people not hurt themselves or others. And it can allow innovation to continue. Yes, in some sense, enabling others to make stuff could allow competition to thrive. However, dangling the carrot of "secret safety sauce" only hurts the industry.

Here's some examples of other industries which have had massive game changers in the past 10 years:

- 3d printing. $50k to $1k. Makerbot.com
- microprocessor programming: $2k to $30 arduino.cc
- advanced signal processing. $200k to $2k. gnuradio + www.ettus.com

All of those projects have spun off massive amounts of innovation and creativity. Hundreds if not thousands of small companies have formed around them. And they all embrace open design.

Safety is a major concern. That's why I want to see the industry embrace and publish best practices. There is a difference between real safety and the certification of safety. Both are important. Both should be understood by n00bs seeking information.

/soapbox.

Some of you may wonder what I do. In short, I'm developing a system which can shoot down mosquitoes with lasers. The goal of this device is to help eradicate malaria. Nope, not kidding.

A description of the system and how it works:
http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=695

Highspeed video of mosquitoes being shot with lasers:
http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=653

General overview of the system:
http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=757

I am not competition to any laser display projection company or people. Yes, this system will be safe. Yes, it's taken time and money to figure that out. However, information will be published soon on how to do that. The safety system will sadly not translate well to display projection safety.

Cheers,
-3ric

[laserist]

Things evolve and change all of the time. 'secrets of the trade' on laser displays seems to sadly include safety. Imagine for a moment if firearms dealers had the same sort of policies. But things change. Take programming microprocessors as an example. This used to take major hacking, money, books, programming skills, etc. Enter arduino. I've taught a 9 year old girl how to make a rc servo motor swing around, and leds blink. And she wrote the code. The open state of things such as that are complete game changers. They enable people to do things they otherwise would have not be able to do on that scale. This is what powered the industrial revolution.

From one standpoint, the game of laser displays has already changed drastically in the past 10 years. $10k gas lasers? no, try $100 diodes with more power. $6k galvos? try $100 galvos. CPU power? ditto. Sadly, due to the availability of such devices, we have a massive inrush of people with little experience building stuff. You said yourself that it took lots of time money and energy to build a product. Wouldn't it of been awesome if you didn't have to spend that money? Sadly, the folks with years of experience sometimes only share: "It's not safe! my stuff is safe, damn kids!"

The game has changed. Not publishing product development tips to enable safe operation of these low cost devices only hurts the industry, IMHO. We can't stop the purchase or building of these things. But we CAN helpfully publish information which helps people not hurt themselves or others. And it can allow innovation to continue. Yes, in some sense, enabling others to make stuff could allow competition to thrive. However, dangling the carrot of "secret safety sauce" only hurts the industry.

Here's some examples of other industries which have had massive game changers in the past 10 years:

- 3d printing. $50k to $1k. Makerbot.com
- microprocessor programming: $2k to $30 arduino.cc
- advanced signal processing. $200k to $2k. gnuradio + www.ettus.com

All of those projects have spun off massive amounts of innovation and creativity. Hundreds if not thousands of small companies have formed around them. And they all embrace open design.

Safety is a major concern. That's why I want to see the industry embrace and publish best practices. There is a difference between real safety and the certification of safety. Both are important. Both should be understood by n00bs seeking information.

/soapbox.

Some of you may wonder what I do. In short, I'm developing a system which can shoot down mosquitoes with lasers. The goal of this device is to help eradicate malaria. Nope, not kidding.

A description of the system and how it works:
http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=695

Highspeed video of mosquitoes being shot with lasers:
http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=653

General overview of the system:
http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=757

I am not competition to any laser display projection company or people. Yes, this system will be safe. Yes, it's taken time and money to figure that out. However, information will be published soon on how to do that. The safety system will sadly not translate well to display projection safety.

Cheers,
-3ric

Oh please! First your examples other than fire arms aren’t dangerous. And there are plenty of idiots with guns too… Every day it seems someone posts the same questions. How do I build a RGB Scanner? Please help, a few questions, a little help, I want to do audience scanning, etc., etc. For god’s sake - they can’t even be bothered to search the existing posts – which btw are fairly complete. And then somehow it’s somebody else’s fault when these clowns set up dangerous shows? These people may be nice guys, but they’re also INCOMPETENT, and destined to stay that way - because they want someone else to take them by the hand and lead them to knowledge. The knowledge is already there - they just can’t be bothered to look for it. But you’re right - someone is at fault – anybody who sells these bozos lasers, anybody who defends these incompetent asshole’s “rights” to do half assed dangerous shows in front of the public, and anybody who encourages these clowns to take the low road…

If you don't know what you're doing - It's your own fault.

Brian

[mccarrot]

For building projector all the safety information you need is in the EN60825-1

For doing lasershows It all starts with a decent power meter, but most people spend all there money on high power lasers without investing in the right tools to do any measuring.

How can you ever talk about "is it save" if you do not even know what your projector is putting out.

So once you have a decent powermeter you can take your projector and put out a static beam. Now you can measure to irradiance (mw/cm2) at 1 meter, 5 meter 10 meter 20 meter 30 meter 50 meter etc. to get a feeling how the power of your projector is behaving.

If you want to do audiance scanning and you do not have scanfail the maximum value is 2,5mW/cm with scanfail its 10mw/cm2

Under the right conditions 100mW/cm2 can be acceptable (10xMPE)

If you have experiment allot with all of the above please feel free to ask any questions.

[mixedgas]

nd it can allow innovation to continue. Yes, in some sense, enabling others to make stuff could allow competition to thrive. However, dangling the carrot of "secret safety sauce" only hurts the industry.

END QUOTE>

Hey, 3ric

Ok, I try not to take things personally, but one I've had a rough two weeks, and two, you had better take a look at my track record before you talk about "secret safety sauce" .

Maybe you ought to read my other posts and go google osr "AT" uakron.edu on Alt.Lasers. Then Sam's laser faq and note the attribution section. I have stressed safety and shared safety knowledge in forums since 1988, and your total contribution is ????

Not to mention 5 years as a university LSO.

The problem is a lot of people read how to do it safe, then never do...

Steve

[ElektroFreak]

I can't speak for anyone else, but to me you're undeniably one of the "good guys" Steve, and you won't find me insinuating otherwise. I'm simply in favor of the idea of a complete compilation, for PL members, of information regarding laser show safety and certification (whatever that might mean in one's country of origin) that can easily be found by searching with simple keywords or maybe even stickified.

[dsli_jon]

EF -

There are a significant number of "Professionals", however, who will not be willing to help with this since they believe that many aspects of laser show safety are trade secrets and should be kept that way....but I can almost guarantee you that there are only very few truly knowledgeable members here who will help. I'm sure that Marc (gottaluvlasers), mixedgas and buffo will likely be more than willing to contribute since between them they're responsible for most of the best posts on laser show safety on PL, but as for others.. I'm doubting it. Those people can feel free to prove me wrong, though.

Or, how about YOU prove YOUR baseless-accusations? I'd like the PL-member names and post / thread-examples of 'all the significant number of Pros' that have rebuffed you and/or refused to give out help, here, in the name-of 'curbing-competition'??? I don't know of a SINGLE laser show Co or Pro-laserist that would be unwilling to 'share' laser-show / projector safety info...(which, is all publicly-available from the CDRH, anyway...) - perhaps not projector / system designs, but surely you would not argue that someone who makes a living doing shows, should not protect their 'IP', correct?

...but I don't believe for a second that that is the whole reason for their lack of willingness to share tips for safety and certification...It also conveniently protects them from competition much of the time, especially here in the US where the process of proving safety and obtaining certification is ridiculously outdated and obscure (conveniently) and the govt. entity behind it is barely existant.

Dude, where do you get your whacked-out ideas from??? I believe Brian, there, only reacted the way he did to your posts, cause your accusations about the Pros, and 'conspiracy-theories' (ie: ILDA being a 'Big Boys Club', and somehow, the Pros being 'in-cahoots' (conveniently) with the CDRH to 'squelch competition'...) I think is some of the most rediculous stuff that has been-posted, here, since djLaserTitz was posting...

The 'process of proving safety and obtaining certification' is NOT THAT DIFFICULT. It is time-consuming, yes - it IS 'outdated' - yes - but it is NOT - it is NOT - it is NOT purposely 'complicated' or 'antiquated' to 'squash competition' - that is just 'movie-caliber' fiction / hogwash!! The 'govt. entity behind it is barely existant' cause the Gov't is BROKE, and they simply have not HIRED more laser-people after several of the formerly very-active people in the Branch either retired (ie: Frank Mackison, etc) died (Dennis Butcher, etc) or got moved largely to other tasks (Dale Smith, he still does laser reports, but try and get him to answer the phone - he's just BLITZED...) so PROVE to me your accusations and 'theories' that this is all being DONE to the 'hobbiest' / PL'er to 'squash competition'... Tell me WHO "they" are... names and posts, please...

A little competition never hurt anyone..

Heh - I will preserve, herein, this quote from you, specifically, so-that, should you achieve your previously-stated 'desire' to 'do pro-shows', in the future (and I wholeheartedly applaud and encourage your efforts to-do so...) I can 'feed' your words back to you with cheese and crackers....(you've clearly got plenty of whine)... I am willing to bet you'd feel quite differently if you fed your family doing laser shows.

Respecfully angry,
J

Edit: two-more points:

I think that you are operating under the assumption that there is some secret set of information that if made 'public' would allow shows to be done safely. IMO, it does not exist in that form.

...What allows those elements to be used properly to create a safe show and or manufacture a safe and (in our case) US legal projector is experience. This is one of those cases where a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing.

It is kind of unreasonable to expect people who have worked and studied and apprenticed for years or even careers to just sit down and pour out a lifetime of experience to people who have not been around the block enough to implement it correctly....

You can start the way I did: I started reading Laser Notice 43 and then kept going up until I couldn't find anymore. Then I read the relevant sections of 21CFR. I bought two or three laser physics books on Amazon and after all of that i knew what questions to ask.

A-MEN. I do not argue the beneficialness' of a 'central repository' for this info - would you like to repeat-back to me the DATE on THIS Post? (and yes, there have been others / the info has changed, since-then, blah, blah, blah - still makes the point...) And did you miss the Thread about an 'ILDA Hobbiest-level' membership and the benefits-discussed, therein? (...and that was proposed BY a 'professional', BTW...) But the bottom line is...

The problem is a lot of people read how to do it safe, then never do...

A-MEN. But the 'accusations' about 'all the Pros keeping this all secret' is just total BS...
j

[ElektroFreak]

On that note, I did notice upon reading through section 21CFR1040.10 that it is possible to get a basic idea of what is needed in terms of system structure and labeling in order for it to be certified simply by reading attentively, so that much is a bit helpful, but the structure of the document is difficult to follow at many points, which will cause confusion in one's initial attempts to submit the proper paperwork.. I think an outline of highlighted topics that pertain directly to laser shows rather than all lasers in general would be helpful, but it might be a little tough to accomplish by anyone without real-world experience.

[dsli_jon]

Hey there EF -

Not to 'drag this out' but just a couple points:

If you are scared of competition, you shouldn't be in business, my friend.

??? It is the illegal, undercutting 'hacks' I 'rant' against... (and, just so it's clear, I am NOT herein 'implying' you are such a 'hack', since you don't do shows...) but I don't consider those people 'competition' - they're more like 'viruses', cause they ruin everything for everyone. Create more burdensome regs / fees, and drive down fair-pricing and sour what could-be good Clients for several-different Sho Co's over the years on laser-shows, period (..." we paid $1000. for THAT???"...).... LEGITIMATE competition IS 'healthy' - but ONLY IF the pricing is kept up, and so are the standards - both legally/safely and quality-wise..

As far as protecting your intellectual property, of course it's in one's best interest to do so, but we're not talking about intellectual property here. We're talking about safety and certification.

You forget that you accused 'many professionals' here, of jealously guarding safety / certification info, (like they legitimately and properly do with IP) and that point needed to be 'clarified', since you seemed to 'blur' the two...

I might not ever be competition, but like I said, the times are changing. Just make sure you keep up. The lowest bidder usually takes the show.. If the quality's there and the client is happy, well that'll put a damper on your day won't it.

Not really, since there is always another show / another quote, just around the corner - you needn't worry about us 'keeping up'...And it is extremely RARE that the 'lowest bidder' will also deliver the highest-quality...But any Client that cannot appreciate the difference between an $800. 'hack-show' with a 1 Watt green or imported-RGBarf system, vs an $8k show with flawless timing, excellent music-selection / seamless editing, custom animations/graphics, bounce mirrors, etc (all the bells/whistles, etc) and a spectacular show layout / design - and all Varianced and INSURED - is of no interest, to me / us, anyway...

You might not agree with my opinions (and that's all they are... AND I'm entitled to state them), but in your last post I'm not seeing you act in a manner contrary to what I've stated.

The only exception I take to your 'opinion' - NOT of your right to voice / own it - is the inferrence there are 'many professionals', here, on PL, that refuse to be helpful because we are 'guarding secrets of laser safety because we are afraid of competition'... and in-cahoots with the Gov, in doing-so - that is the 'sense of the message' in your posts, whether that was your 'intended-point' or not, and in MY opinion, offensive and just plain BS - As-to MY contributions, here - yeah, I'm a very busy "professional", but let me take just yet another minute to give you a 'jump-start' on my 'manner' (since you've called that into question, too...):

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...gency-Contacts

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...9630#post39630

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...9448#post69448

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...discussionid=2

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...319#post136319

..and so-on.. and the 'purpose' of this post is NOT to 'champion' myself, but to take issue with your accusation that there are a 'significant number of pros', here, that selfishly-guard 'safe-practice' knowledge in the name of anti-competition... Sorry, but in MY 'opinion', offensive comments / attitudes like that are more of a 'reason' why a 'pro' would 'hold-back' from helping / sharing info, NOT because they are 'afraid of competition'....

I've said several times that I'm just in favor of consolidating this information.. are you going to bitch at me for stating my opinions (however misguided you believe they are) or are you going to help the OP and many other people who would love have a good, centralized resource for proper laser show certification and safety create one?

Well, why don't you take the lead and start one, and see who 'fills it up'?... I already started ONE, and I am now going to go update it with recently-changed info... Like was already correctly stated - the info you desire IS OUT THERE, there are no 'secret-clubs', and I observe, that the majority of Pros, here on PL - take/make time to HELP, not hinder, the 'hobbiest'... IMO...

peace..
j

[dsli_jon]

Not everyone has a budget for an $8000+ show. Are you saying they they shouldn't have a laser show because they're not willing to spend the money for your shows? What a crock of shit!! Many people will happily fill the middle ground if you won't.. but to you everyone who would do so is an incompetent hack.

Ok, what we have here is a failure to communicate, so let me clarify:

Being a 'hack' has nothing to do with show-pricing, in-and-of-itself - I was using 'hyperbole' with the difference between the $800. and the $8K figures to make a point - of COURSE there are quality-shows done for less than $8K, but counter to your 'lowest bidder usually takes the show - if the quality is there and the client is happy'-point, if we bid a show at $1.5K, for example, and some guy - Unvarianced, Uninsured, using an illegal / uncertified POS comes along and offers to do the same thing for $800. - and then, delivers " a show " - basically, just shoots some pre-programmed beams and aerials (and maybe a logo) around the venue to a techno-track - and the end-result is that the CFO / Client never wants to hear the word 'laser' again, cause they 'paid $800. for that???' - THAT is a 'hack', IMO...

It's not about the money - it's about QUALITY, which is SO MUCH MORE than how much $$ you spent on your frieking projector / how much you charge for doing shows. But you can be pretty-sure that the guy that runs around undercutting shows, left and right, ain't spending $multi-K / year on maintaining the 'basics' (between time-invested in Variance / show reports / FAA reports / equipment-maintenance / good, 'top of the line' gear, that is SAFE / certified, etc, Biz insurance, etc, etc, etc...) but instead, 'cuts corners' at every turn...

But according to you, just wanting to do a show that isn't a SPECTACULARLY EXPENSIVE EXTRAVAGANZA is promoting being a hack. I just think you're acting stuck up, and frankly it's starting to anger me.

Not in the least - but I certainly reserve the right to refuse to 'drop my pants' below what I know is 'industry-damaging' pricing (below what it takes, as a MINIMUM to maintain insurance, good gear, etc) - if I set my prices at a minimum for X-level of service, and someone comes along and 'undercuts' it, and I choose not-to 'drop' to that level - or below - just to 'get' the show - that is being 'stuck up'?? Funny, I thought that was called 'principles'...

These days there's no reason for things to have to be as tough as they were when you started.. that's the nature of technology. I think that frightens you, though.. no one knows just how things will end up, and that unknown scares people. Doesn't really scare me, though..

hah! Yes, clearly, I am terrified of change...



...I know how to 'swim in the deep-end' very, very well, thank you very much... I am THRILLED to see so many 'newcomers' / new technology - I LOVE learning / integrating new things / more-efficient designs, etc - BUT - NOT at the 'cost' of quality / craftsmanship or good-biz principles / practices...

I take offense at being compared to prodjallen, someone who has blatantly ignored safety repeatedly in the past. And I didn't say you don't contribute. My comment is confined solely to that specific post of yours.

Well, sorry - I was not comparing you to him / his practices - just that the offensive to all 'pros' here (me being just one 'tiny' one of them...) comments you made, were the most rediculous I'd heard since he was posting, here... You really believe 'most' of the pros out there 'guard safety info / tips' due to anti-competition fright, and this is somehow also why ("conveniently") the CDRH is such a 'mess'?

Nice of you to dodge the most thread-relevant part of my post.

Well sorry - it's just that this is what stuck-out to me... and others...

There are a significant number of "Professionals", however, who will not be willing to help with this since they believe that many aspects of laser show safety are trade secrets and should be kept that way.

.....but I don't believe for a second that that is the whole reason for their lack of willingness to share tips for safety and certification (and of course I mean only the ones who won't share tips..

...Doesn't matter... we've wasted enough time and space with this 'pointless bickering' in this poor Gentlemans' thread... 3ric, apologies to-you, though I can't say I agree with some of what you posted on this subject, either - the ONLY thing I agree-with and can support, is the idea of having a safety-regs / best-practices 'wiki' / central-repository... I, for one, will continue to contribute when / as-I can..

peace..
j

[buffo]

Before this flame-war goes any further, let's see if we can agree on a few things:

1) I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with a trained laserist (who has a variance and event insurance) going out and bidding $500 (or some other absurdly low amount) for a laser show, undercutting the big boys. That's called competition, and everyone has to deal with it. So long as the quality is equal, I'm sure even DSLI-jon agrees with this premise.

The problem, of course, is that trained laserists with variances and insurance already understand that at $500 per show, it's not profitable for them to do the show. They'd quickly go bankrupt. That's why they charge more.

But a hack who buys a single projector off e-Bay (and who doesn't have a variance or insurance) can certainly justify a few hours of his spare time to earn an extra 500 bucks on a Friday night. After all, it's not like he's going to quit his day job... And it's these people that the pros (including DSLI-jon) are bitching about.

2) Very few people (professional or otherwise) actually withhold information as it pertains to laser safety. If you have a question about laser safety and you ask it in an intelligent manner (displaying the fact that you've done your best to understand the issue before asking your question), you will almost certainly get the answer you are looking for, either here on PL or in person at a Laser Enthusiast's Meeting. (Or even at an ILDA conference, for that matter.)

The problem is that some people ask questions without understanding *anything* about safety, and they expect everything to be just handed to them. Taking on a question like this often means accepting responsibility for answering *lots* of future questions. How many people are willing to invest the time needed to answer them?

Also, some of these people asking these questions are the same ones who have no intention of ever getting their variance. They are only looking to learn the absolute minimum that *they* think they need to get by. Answering a question in such a situation is dicey at best, since you have no idea what their knowledge level is. In the worst case, you might end up encouraging someone to do a show that ends up being grossly unsafe. (See the ProDJallen thread for abundant examples of this.) And how does that leave the senior member feeling afterwards? Frustrated as hell, I can tell you.

So, given that safety is a complex topic, where does a person draw the line? At what point do you decide that the extra work of explaining something two or three times becomes too much? After all, no one here gets paid for answering questions. We all donate our time.

So how much is too much? And when it comes to the pros (who presumably have other things they could be doing to actually earn money), why bother trying to help someone who in all likelihood might end up underbidding them on a show in the future? (Especially if that person won't have a variance when they bid?) This is where a lot of the friction between the hobbyist and the professional communities comes from.

The solution is to ask intelligent questions, and to make an honest effort to learn as much as you can before you cry for help. In those cases, people will help you. I've *always* been able to get help when I needed it - even from people who make their living doing shows. But I don't ask about stupid shit that I could learn from a simple Google search, either.

I've heard several people complain that we need a Wiki with all the safety information in it. And I agree this would be a great resource. But I don't have the time to pull it together. I'm already involved in *lots* of other projects related to PL, and there are only so many hours in the day. (I have a life too, you know...) If someone else wants to head this up, that's great. I'm sure several people will give their input to the project.

But I certainly don't *expect* anyone to do this, and I damn sure won't complain if no one volunteers for it. Because I understand that it will be a *LOT* of work, and if I don't have time for it, why would I think anyone else would?

3) The "rite of passage" for laserists doesn't mean you have to grovel at the feet of the pros, but it does mean you need to work on educating yourself. There's nothing wrong with asking questions, but you need to show that you've at least done some research on the initial answers before you come back with new questions.

You wouldn't believe the number of PM's I answer on a weekly basis. Some of them are sharp, inquisitive questions from passionate hobbyists who are completely enthusiastic about lasers and who are devouring every resource they can to learn more about how projectors work. I like answering those PM's, and I will bend over backwards to help people in that situation.

But I also get PM's from people asking if I can fill out their product report for them and file it with the CDRH for them. Uh... No, I don't think so. First, I haven't finished my own product report yet, and second, if you haven't even looked at the form yet you have no business asking someone else to fill it out for you. (Unless you're going to pay them to do so, that is. And I am not in the business of filling out product reports! Call Casey Stack for that...)

I'm sure that many members (including DSLI-jon, and probably Brian as well) have had to field requests similar to those I've detailed above. And I can tell you that it doesn't take very many of the second type to really turn a person off on the idea of helping others... That is probably why Jon is so sensitive to this issue. Truthfully, I'm getting a bit testy myself, and I'm still a relative newbie in this game.

In summary, safety is not proprietary. It is complex, and answering safety questions takes time and effort, which not everyone is willing to donate. But if you do your homework and ask intelligent questions, you'll get your answers. Just don't expect people to spoon feed you - ever.

Adam