Originally Posted by
buffo
Before this flame-war goes any further, let's see if we can agree on a few things:
1) I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with a trained laserist (who has a variance and event insurance) going out and bidding $500 (or some other absurdly low amount) for a laser show, undercutting the big boys. That's called competition, and everyone has to deal with it. So long as the quality is equal, I'm sure even DSLI-jon agrees with this premise.
The problem, of course, is that trained laserists with variances and insurance already understand that at $500 per show, it's not profitable for them to do the show. They'd quickly go bankrupt. That's why they charge more.
But a hack who buys a single projector off e-Bay (and who doesn't have a variance or insurance) can certainly justify a few hours of his spare time to earn an extra 500 bucks on a Friday night. After all, it's not like he's going to quit his day job... And it's these people that the pros (including DSLI-jon) are bitching about.
Agreed. That's more than fair.
2) Very few people (professional or otherwise) actually withhold information as it pertains to laser safety. If you have a question about laser safety and you ask it in an intelligent manner (displaying the fact that you've done your best to understand the issue before asking your question), you will almost certainly get the answer you are looking for, either here on PL or in person at a Laser Enthusiast's Meeting. (Or even at an ILDA conference, for that matter.)
The problem is that some people ask questions without understanding *anything* about safety, and they expect everything to be just handed to them. Taking on a question like this often means accepting responsibility for answering *lots* of future questions. How many people are willing to invest the time needed to answer them?
Also, some of these people asking these questions are the same ones who have no intention of ever getting their variance. They are only looking to learn the absolute minimum that *they* think they need to get by. Answering a question in such a situation is dicey at best, since you have no idea what their knowledge level is. In the worst case, you might end up encouraging someone to do a show that ends up being grossly unsafe. (See the ProDJallen thread for abundant examples of this.) And how does that leave the senior member feeling afterwards? Frustrated as hell, I can tell you.
So, given that safety is a complex topic, where does a person draw the line? At what point do you decide that the extra work of explaining something two or three times becomes too much? After all, no one here gets paid for answering questions. We all donate our time.
So how much is too much? And when it comes to the pros (who presumably have other things they could be doing to actually earn money), why bother trying to help someone who in all likelihood might end up underbidding them on a show in the future? (Especially if that person won't have a variance when they bid?) This is where a lot of the friction between the hobbyist and the professional communities comes from.
OK, also completely fair. If, as a professional, you don't want to take the time to help by answering questions you've answered a thousand times, fine. I understand completely. That's no reason to dodge questions and point fingers at the so-called "hacks" asking them. Just don't answer. It's real simple.
The solution is to ask intelligent questions, and to make an honest effort to learn as much as you can before you cry for help. In those cases, people will help you. I've *always* been able to get help when I needed it - even from people who make their living doing shows. But I don't ask about stupid shit that I could learn from a simple Google search, either.
I've heard several people complain that we need a Wiki with all the safety information in it. And I agree this would be a great resource. But I don't have the time to pull it together. I'm already involved in *lots* of other projects related to PL, and there are only so many hours in the day. (I have a life too, you know...) If someone else wants to head this up, that's great. I'm sure several people will give their input to the project.
Input is all we're looking for. Input over time, when people have the time.
But I certainly don't *expect* anyone to do this, and I damn sure won't complain if no one volunteers for it. Because I understand that it will be a *LOT* of work, and if I don't have time for it, why would I think anyone else would?
3) The "rite of passage" for laserists doesn't mean you have to grovel at the feet of the pros, but it does mean you need to work on educating yourself. There's nothing wrong with asking questions, but you need to show that you've at least done some research on the initial answers before you come back with new questions.
You wouldn't believe the number of PM's I answer on a weekly basis. Some of them are sharp, inquisitive questions from passionate hobbyists who are completely enthusiastic about lasers and who are devouring every resource they can to learn more about how projectors work. I like answering those PM's, and I will bend over backwards to help people in that situation.
But I also get PM's from people asking if I can fill out their product report for them and file it with the CDRH for them. Uh... No, I don't think so. First, I haven't finished my own product report yet, and second, if you haven't even looked at the form yet you have no business asking someone else to fill it out for you. (Unless you're going to pay them to do so, that is. And I am not in the business of filling out product reports! Call Casey Stack for that...)
I'm sure that many members (including DSLI-jon, and probably Brian as well) have had to field requests similar to those I've detailed above. And I can tell you that it doesn't take very many of the second type to really turn a person off on the idea of helping others... That is probably why Jon is so sensitive to this issue. Truthfully, I'm getting a bit testy myself, and I'm still a relative newbie in this game.
In summary, safety is not proprietary. It is complex, and answering safety questions takes time and effort, which not everyone is willing to donate. But if you do your homework and ask intelligent questions, you'll get your answers. Just don't expect people to spoon feed you - ever.
I understand all this. I also find it commendable that you give good reasons for how you feel here. If you read over the "pros" contributions to this thread, you won't find any such reasons. Instead you'll find arrogant responses and both direct and indirect insults. Hats off to those guys. I'm sure they do great shows.. at least they have that to make up for crap attitudes and "holier-than-thou" judgmentalism.
Adam
Reply With Quote
buffo
So there are some good guys still out there.
Anyhoo, I especially appreciated your 'street-wisdom', here:
) PROVIDED THAT I don't have to explain more than ONCE to any would-be 'Tech' WHICH end of the extension cord goes WHERE 
- You'd be astonished just how many times I've had to show an "Electrical Engineer" or some guy with a 'degree' how to connect feeder to the mains - or how to use his DMM (!) - and I ain't an EE! 
....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...
