For what it's worth...

[dsli_jon]

Hey DrL..

Why are you guys being hard on laserist here - his story, whether a parable (as intended) or real account (as may be the case) and the lesson it carries is worthwhile and true. He's not saying you or everyone here is incompetent, but as the saying goes a little knowledge can be more dangerous than a lot, and that is certainly the case with lasers.
The fact that there aren't many really outstanding, committed laser artists isn't an insult to everyone else, but should allow one to appreciate them more.

Excellent excellent post. Thanks for helping 'tip the fulcrum' back to where it belongs...

it doesn't appear that there has been a formal introduction, but for what it's worth, welcome laserist, I'm glad you're here.

Me too. You see, (and I am going out on a 'limb', here...) Brian (aka "laserist") is one of the people, upon whos' backs WE (and, I include myself in this 'we', even-with 18+ years working with lasers...) are ALL standing, in SOME-way, shape or form...

Brian - like mixedgas, Laserman532, LaserWizard, Robert Hess, William Benner, Casey Stack, Greg Makhov (and several others) are people who - as Pat so eloquently put-it one-time - "...were the guys peeling-back the foreskins of technology.." - and are largely responsible - in at LEAST some way - for ALL - ALL we have to 'play with', here, INCLUDING, solid-state, because even though some, were purely 'ion / analog Gods', the physics / electronic-principles they worked on / designs they tested / proposed / explored - or even created - in SOME way, have SOME trickle-down benefit to how EASY and accessible things are today, for 'laserists'.

And like many 'great men', these guys are usually just too HUMBLE to 'let-on' what thier true accomplishments - in laser HISTORY - really, are... and so, to a 'n00b', who thinks 'all ya gotta do is drop $2-3 grand on an RGBV rig and and FB3 and - whammo - you're a " laserist " - or - 'all ya gotta do is BUY a retired medical laser off eBay, hack some wires together and glue-on some galvos, and - whammo - you're a " lasershow Co. " - episodes like we have seen in other threads, where those with the MOST experience on this Forum (and, in some-cases, the entire INDUSTRY...) get 'accused' of being 'selfish' by not pouring-out all the 'trade-secrets' from a bottle, on-demand - like it's frigging 'PPV' or something - quickly cause 'parables', rich with 'lessons-learned', from the YEARS of experience, lived-thru, to 'well-up' and get posted, as 'passionate' as they may-be.

So yeah, Andrew - THANK YOU for reminding folks that we (myself, included...) should 'RESPECT OUR ELDERS', and of just how valuable they really all are. And while I am 'on my knees', here THANK YOU to Brian, Steve, Pat, Tim, Bill, Greg, Robert, et. al. for all the TIME and INvaluable knowledge and help you freely offer around here, and for 'putting-up' with the 'Plateau I's and IIs', here... (myself, included...)

peace-out...
j

[dsli_jon]

EF -

I'll never kiss your ass because I don't kiss anybody's ass.

...and PLEASE - DON'T EVER TRY... thanks.

Don't tell me to watch my attitude. Who the hell are you to tell me anything?

Nobody. I am no-body. No one. Zero Zip Ziltch.

...It's just that maaaaybe your attitude was what was preventing you from getting the help and info you sought, rather than some professionals-conspiracy-theory - (??)

you got some kind of personal issue with me? Well spit that shit out, then, comprende? Let's not beat around the bush..


...I haven't stated anything in any of my posts here or in any other thread decrying the experience and contributions of many of these people. Do not insinuate that I have.

...yeah, I guess I do:

You know nothing about any of us, yet you're so comfortable with your own delusions of superiority that you feel like it's your god-given right to judge others.

...And you would know ANYTHING about Brian or his background, (in order to insult him that he's deluded) ...how, exactly? Remember, HE did not start this thread insulting YOU. He simply told a true-life experience as a 'parable' from-which others simply drew a lesson'... So, WHO was being the 'ARROGANT TROLL', in this instance?

You guys keep your advice.. It's not worth it to me.

That's too-bad - You could learn a lot from a Dummy.

I do decry you Jon, and Brian, because of your repeated veiled insults and your inability to accept that I'm entitled to my beliefs.

ok, let's validate:

#1: YOU ARE FULLY ENTITLED TO YOUR BELIEFS, OPINIONS, AND RIGHT TO STATE THEM FULLY, IN-PUBLIC. So, you can 'dish it out' - but if you can't 'take it'...well...Sorry

#2: No more 'veils': YOU are the one being ARROGANT, and the PROOF of this is that I am not the ONLY ONE who reacted the way I did to your posts, over at the previous Thread, here, and/or in the past (ie: like when you argued in-favor of 'why not just not -bother to get a Variance, cause 'everybody else does it' / the CDRH is broken, etc.....) - yes, perhaps I 'react' more 'passionately' / verbally, than others - to thier-Credit, certainly, but, like you, I simply refuse to 'bow down to you', either - hey, something we have in common...

And don't worry - I don't need any adulation whatsoever from you - I stand on my own accomplishments - I started in my basement / garage, just like nearly everyone else, here - and I took the looong, hard, 'high road'... - but whoopdie-friggin-doo, because regardless of anything I have 'accomplished', I will NEVER stop learning / being 'taught' / corrected - I will LEARN from and RESPECT My 'Elders' (those with greater knowledge and experience than me - and there ALWAYS will be someone...) - heck, I'm sure I'll even learn something from you, St Louis...

So you go ahead and hate-on and 'decry' all you want. I just felt you needed to be 'hauled out on the mat' for your comments / accusations about all the 'professionals', and your ARROGANT attitude displayed to those to whos' @$$ you SHOULD-BE kissing (NOT mine, thanks...) - but, then again, like you said - you'll do this your way, so I'll just go away, now...

cheers!...
j

[drlava]

Fair enough. I'll never ask a question about safety or certification here again. You may notice that I've never asked many questions here. Most of what I've learned about lasers of all types I've learned through my own research and experimentation, and I am MUCH more comfortable continuing on that path than I am groveling to the likes of you and Jon. You guys keep your advice.. It's not worth it to me. The rest of the members here who could benefit from that advice can fend for themselves as well.

Elektrofreak, you have been a very helpful and giving member of this and the other forum from what I can see. Sharing your knowledge and time to help people figure out problems and begin to enjoy the fruits of their (and your, and others) labors. So I think you could relate to the statement:

Ok - If you want to do X it's your obligation is to learn. ..nobody here is obligated to teach you, and if they choose to teach, to answer your questions, and to post cool stuff - well then maybe it would be good form.. (to show appreciation)

to YOU when you help others. I didn't see it as directed against you, but (rare, fortunately) forum members who are just out to take take take.
Maybe it hasn't happened to you, but a few times in the past I've been helping people who either act like I'm just doing what they deserve, or once the problem is solved with help they state 'I figured it out, it works for me now, bye' without concern for giving back in terms of final solution details or gratitude. So I think it's a good reminder, in general.

Disclaimer:
I haven't seen other threads that you might be referring to, so that may have affected (or not affected) my perspective.

[ElektroFreak]

Andrew, I do relate to it 100% and at no point have I said anything about being entitled to help in any way. I KNOW what research and learning are. But I refuse to be talked down to by these guys. Sorry. They may have experience out the wazoo, I can't see past the kind of attitude Jon here is displaying. I'm not required to acknowledge either one of their contributions to laserdom in light of their decision to gang up and "haul me out" because I stated an opinion. People like that are not worthy of my respect, plain and simple. THAT's my issue here now. Not my opinions on their helpfulness, not my issues with the certification process. I do not want the help of people who have not earned my respect. They may have earned TONS of other people's, but not mine. It's an individual process with me. Either you earn it or you don't. Your past actions are irrelevant. By earning my respect I don't mean "bowing to" what I'm arguing. I don't mean compromising your beliefs, but I do mean having a little respect for the individual and his right to have and share opinions. It's great that these guys are successful, and I know they have much to offer in terms of advice, but how could I ever feel comfortable groveling to them in order to get it?

I know I'm a volatile individual, but I never said anything personal about Jon here. I just called things as I saw them at the time. And no I wasn't nice about it. Why should I be? The responses coming back to me started off pretty ignorant, especially from Jon (in the other thread). Also, I'm not the only one who thought the "anecdote" at the beginning of this thread was a bad idea and seemed like an effort to discourage people, but here I am being singled out like some kind of garbage with no respect for anyone.. Anyone who feels that way about me..... well, I can tell them what to do with those feelings. I have MUCH respect for many people here and i will not allow that to be trivialized by some laser guy with a god complex. Could I have been mistaken in my opinions? Sure. Could I have misunderstood? Sure. but after that kind of bullshit I just don't care. And I could post links to the other thread, but it would be best to go there to talk safety not look at the flame war.

[flecom]

There's certainly a degree of venting, but there's a moral there too. You see the problem with Avo is he didn't care. He may have wanted to be a laserist, but he sure wasn't going to work very hard at it.

Way back when, Sam McGee had a little mini-scanner in his office. I remember a party or something where Darryl was playing with it. Sam kept calling out, "Write that down!" He meant write down the frequency settings that produced the image. It became a joke that acknowledged among other things, "I'm not a laserist..."

So this is for the people calling out for the old guard to "write that down"...

while I can see your point, things have changed a bit from "what frequencies did you have on the oscillators?"

for someone fairly new in the field sitting in front of an advanced laser show application (ex. pangolin) for the first time can be quite intimidating... and I have worked with NLE software for a very long time and computers in general for over 20 years!

so I have no issue sharing my discoveries as a lot of other people dont either...

one thing i have noticed amongst the "elite laserists" is this whole "hoarding" of information... like they will immediately become worthless if they are not the only ones to know and disappear like the wicked witch or something lol

i would not consider myself to be up there, or anywhere near, the "great" laserists... but I'll tell you what, when they play my laser shows at the planetarium they sell out every time

[Laserman532]

There is no such thing as a "great laserist". We are just ants hurdling through space on a pale blue dot. We spend all of our time performing mindless task for people who could care less so we can feel good about ourselves. We are humans, hung up on the novelty of life. Go home and look at your dog, now there is the ultimate description of inner peace and contentment.

Or whatever...

[laserist]

while I can see your point, things have changed a bit from "what frequencies did you have on the oscillators?"

for someone fairly new in the field sitting in front of an advanced laser show application (ex. pangolin) for the first time can be quite intimidating... and I have worked with NLE software for a very long time and computers in general for over 20 years!

so I have no issue sharing my discoveries as a lot of other people dont either...

one thing i have noticed amongst the "elite laserists" is this whole "hoarding" of information... like they will immediately become worthless if they are not the only ones to know and disappear like the wicked witch or something lol

i would not consider myself to be up there, or anywhere near, the "great" laserists... but I'll tell you what, when they play my laser shows at the planetarium they sell out every time

I have no doubt that sometimes answers are lacking. I deny the assumption that there's just one reason. Time, memory, loyalties, complexity, lawyers, non disclosure agreements and a host of things maybe involved.

Take audience scanning. BTW I consider it an annoying and intrusive practice, but that's just me. I remember when there was a complete moratorium on the audience scanning. The government guys came into Laser Images and after defeating all our safeties one by one and they determined that in the case they had engineered the one remaining safety system wasn't fast enough for safe audience scanning. Ok…

Suppose a company really wanted to do audience scanning. They felt it would be a competitive advantage. So they made a proposal that said, "Assume I use Cambridge Technology X scanners with a mean time between failures of Y. Further assume I use an electronic blanking mechanism that can reduce the power below class 1 limits in z microseconds. The blanking mechanism has a calculated mean time between failures of t. Further assume I've developed a motion detection system that monitors both the drive signal to the scanners and the feedback signal from the scanners and will generate a signal to blank the beam in n micro seconds when the exposure limit trigger is engaged. (Patent Pending) The monitoring system's mean time between failures is o. Further assume I will use lasers with photo coupled current control to hold the max power of the beam within m%. (Add whatever other bells and whistles you like here. power supplies, cables being kicked loose, computers locking up, total length of possible exposure, etc. etc.) Please see Appendix A for a complete analysis of the various failure modes of both major and minor subsystems, and the resulting radiation profiles. Could I do audience scanning with the system described?

None of the above is concerned with calculating the maximum exposure. If the system is functioning to spec it's all unneeded. All of it is about engineering a system that might be approved to allow audience scanning for your company and not for the universe at large, and if somebody gives all that to you - well it's not a trivial bit of work…

[flecom]

I have no doubt that sometimes answers are lacking. I deny the assumption that there's just one reason. Time, memory, loyalties, complexity, lawyers, non disclosure agreements and a host of things maybe involved.

Take audience scanning. BTW I consider it an annoying and intrusive practice, but that's just me. I remember when there was a complete moratorium on the audience scanning. The government guys came into Laser Images and after defeating all our safeties one by one and they determined that in the case they had engineered the one remaining safety system wasn't fast enough for safe audience scanning. Ok…

Suppose a company really wanted to do audience scanning. They felt it would be a competitive advantage. So they made a proposal that said, "Assume I use Cambridge Technology X scanners with a mean time between failures of Y. Further assume I use an electronic blanking mechanism that can reduce the power below class 1 limits in z microseconds. The blanking mechanism has a calculated mean time between failures of t. Further assume I've developed a motion detection system that monitors both the drive signal to the scanners and the feedback signal from the scanners and will generate a signal to blank the beam in n micro seconds when the exposure limit trigger is engaged. (Patent Pending) The monitoring system's mean time between failures is o. Further assume I will use lasers with photo coupled current control to hold the max power of the beam within m%. (Add whatever other bells and whistles you like here. power supplies, cables being kicked loose, computers locking up, total length of possible exposure, etc. etc.) Please see Appendix A for a complete analysis of the various failure modes of both major and minor subsystems, and the resulting radiation profiles. Could I do audience scanning with the system described?

None of the above is concerned with calculating the maximum exposure. If the system is functioning to spec it's all unneeded. All of it is about engineering a system that might be approved to allow audience scanning for your company and not for the universe at large, and if somebody gives all that to you - well it's not a trivial bit of work…

the beauty of it is, no matter how much you could possibly try to make that system work, there would be 1000x more systems out there that some club owner bought on ebay and has pointing straight into the crowd...

I personally dont like audience scanning anyway, i dont enjoy bright lasers pointing at my face and my o-so-precious eyeballs so I dont bother with any of that...

I kind of stand out at all the LEM's as the one guy that dosent want to get hit with multiple watts worth of projectors like its odd?

[flecom]

There is no such thing as a "great laserist". We are just ants hurdling through space on a pale blue dot. We spend all of our time performing mindless task for people who could care less so we can feel good about ourselves. We are humans, hung up on the novelty of life. Go home and look at your dog, now there is the ultimate description of inner peace and contentment.

Or whatever...

why do I have to go home? he comes to work with me



the blurry thing at the bottom of the picture lol

[allthatwhichis]

I thought the moral of the story was: don't attemp something if you are not going to give 100% of yourself to the task; you'll just end up wasting a lot of people's time.