Pat's MicroMount Review!! - microlaserlabs.com

[JohnYayas]

I think there is some confusion between a hobby and a side business. They aren't the same thing. For example, someone might make wooden bowls for fun and then sell them at a flea market. That's a hobby. Someone who occasionally makes custom wooden bowls to order and sells them to a customer is doing contract work on a small scale. That isn't a hobby. That's a side business. It doesn't matter if the guy works at a bakery during the day.

[andy_con]

I think there is some confusion between a hobby and a side business. They aren't the same thing. For example, someone might make wooden bowls for fun and then sell them at a flea market. That's a hobby. Someone who occasionally makes custom wooden bowls to order and sells them to a customer is doing contract work on a small scale. That isn't a hobby. That's a side business. It doesn't matter if the guy works at a bakery during the day.

according to edison it does matter, it really really matters...

[absolom7691]

I introduced the fact that China is the world's number one economy. This wasn't meant as a put down to China, but as a warning/ heads up. When my son visited China last summer he met a young girl on the tour and has kept up an online conversation with her since then. Her school day begins at 7 AM and never finishes before 6 PM and often later, 6 days per week. Her classmates were polite, dressed in uniforms and were excited to practice their impressive English skills on the western visitors. Violent crime is rare even though "free market petty fraud" is very common. At the same time there are vast numbers of very poor people available to populate a low cost workforce. It is these poor that westerners often cite as the resource that threaten western workers and western economies. But, it is that girl and more than a hundred million like her that pose the real competition. The culture is primed to compete successfully with the west and I believe will dominate the world economy in the near future. I believe you will fail if you try to cut them out. You will do better to try to work with them.

This is the reason why the two dominant languages in "Firefly" (excellent show) were English and Chinese. It made sense.

[edison]

i couldnt give a shit about professional companies or hobbyist. just cos its a professional company doesnt mean it makes good stuff that i want to buy. there are many professional chinese companies making lasers stuff doesnt mean they are any good.

I agree, OPT is one of them but everyone seems to buy them because their cheap Most mw/dollar that is what always sells. Do i want to go this route? Hell no!!!!

if a hobby person makes something of good quality and it does the job perfect then ill buy from him.

If he charges the same amount as you can buy from an Official company like Kvant or me you won,t......Only if its at least 40% cheaper.

its interesting that you will only buy stuff from what you describe as a "professional company", you really must be doing your self out of money.

I,m doing things to make a living and since i,m registrated i only can and will deal with other companies that are registrated. Its great that there are guys like losquared that are occasionally build a module nothing wrong about that. But as soon as its about doing things in large quantities to avoid paying tax and to be able to do things cheaper i concider it stealing. The local metalshop guys will agree i,m sure

so are you saying people who do things for a hobby when selling stuff dont take into account designing and manufacturing? they just give things away for free?
you seem to have very odd views on life

I don,t say that hobbyists don,t charge for their work. But with having a job next to it they can do things for half price or even less since they don,t have to pay taxes and make a profit. Bassically they could only charge for the materials if they want to.

I dare you to quit your normal day job, registrate as a company and start selling the same mounts like pat for 5-8 usd. Let me know if you need bread and water.......

[absolom7691]

Make a choice, pay 30usd and get a good mount or buy from a hobbyist or china. Plain and simple

I bought an awesome mount, milled by Andy and it wasn't from China and it wasn't $30.

Lets be an asshole and buy from china instead of supporting the local metalshop where the neigbour is working.He gets payed to support his family and make a living....... but who cares as long as i keep my money and get richer every day. Its all economics it really is......

I highly doubt the metal shop you're supporting gets the aluminum from anywhere but China. The thing is, you're going to be supporting China in some way. China turns out more aluminum than any country, more screws, more optics, more PCBs, more capacitors, pots, resistors, diodes, etc etc etc.... So you mean to tell me that you support local companies that do all of these things? That makes no sense. This is a world economy. As such, you have very little choice in where your "support" is going.

[masterpj]

I wouldn't let myself get told by that machining company you mention.. they are making a good buck out of ya. Keeping you forced looking only local is what they would be forcefully trying to convince you off while you lose profits and opertunities... adapting to a changing market is crucial.. don't stay behind. I'm not saying you have to price fight.. but overspending where overspending isn't needed makes little sense... The gesture is nice but the end user will not see anything in this rather then: "I paid more then should have been needed for what I got." It's not about being cheap.. it's about value for money.

Kvant makes use of the fact they have established themselves as trustworthy on a bigger scale.. It's in more peoples hands.. people see it>know it and trust it hence you'd lose if your price for a product would be the same.. even though it might be better! Building up a customer base that then gets the ball rolling is hard. Finding resellers might be possible but you need to assure you can maintain a stable and on time supply of products at all costs.. ruin it a few times and you lose both your reseller and potential clients.
On a sidenote: I find most kvants tradeshow shows rather bland and uncreative but that's just me and not related to the discussion.

[edison]

I think there is some confusion between a hobby and a side business. They aren't the same thing. For example, someone might make wooden bowls for fun and then sell them at a flea market. That's a hobby. Someone who occasionally makes custom wooden bowls to order and sells them to a customer is doing contract work on a small scale. That isn't a hobby. That's a side business. It doesn't matter if the guy works at a bakery during the day.

Exactly they aren,t the same. But i have a problem with people that are reffering it as a "hobby" but in reallity they avoid paying taxes and steal the milling work what could keep a local metalshop in bussiness. Pat did things to make a living and have to pay taxes and what not. So its a choice, support the hobbyist wich pays no taxes or buy from china since they can do things cheaper or buy from Pat. Choosing the cheap way means the local metalshop wich your neigbour is working is being screwed. Try to explain that to him.........

I don,t have to justify to anyone where i buy the parts but when looking at my neighbour his family i know wich i should getting my parts made......

As for doing lasershows in the netherlands you see exactly the same, the hobbyguys trying to get the gig but lowering the price just to beat their competition. But the event organizing companies have the last laugh There is hardly no profit so they have to buy china crap or buy stuff from a hobbyist.

[Laserman532]

There are no problems only solutions... Due to high demand for lower prices I have decided to announce the

The Laserman532 Micromount "DIY Hobbyist Special Kit"

Initial price target point is between $5.00 to $8.00 USD. (plus shipping)

If volume demand is high enough or if I can source the components from China cheaper our price point could be significantly reduced!

*Some assembly required

[norty303]

Edison, you seem to think that people who sell cheaper than Kvant, etc are giving away their services cheap or doing it for free.

There is a factor that smaller companies simply don't have the overheads of bigger ones, premises are a good example of this. Payroll clerks. Accountants.

At the other end of the scale you have really, really big companies who can do it cheaper because of economies of scale (although usually they are sub-contracting sub-assemblies to the best value supplier - note 'best value' not 'cheapest'. I don't believe many, if any laser companies can really be considered to be in this group yet, as its simply not that big a market to warrant the investment in lots of automation, unlike the car industry for instance (because everyone loves a car analogy that they can say is incomparable... )

I use Chris these days to do a lot of my modules because over the last few years we've realised we look at things the same way (and he has a lot of time, kit and skill that I don't!). Everything is as simple as it can be, and designed for the particular scenario it'll be used in (e.g. if its in a sealed enclosure, why go to the expense and time of making a lid?). In an economically driven business, why pay extra for form over function that isn't required (only me will ever see the insides of one of my projectors). I get a bespoke service from someone who sees the engineering problems the same way as me, great value and would hope that he is charging me an amount that makes it worth his while. Certainly, this is his 'business' area, so I'd consider him a 'pro', even if its not his sole operation.

TBH, I doubt your local machine shop is going to sink or swim on the basis of your work. They should have their fingers in much bigger and sustainable pies and competing in other ways, or offering unique services to survive. So whilst your motives are admirable, I don't think they make a difference in the bigger scheme of things. As you keep saying, business is business, and you are caught up in a moralistic and emotive endeavour which means you don't allow yourself to compete with the competition because you make the playing field unlevel. And as a result, we get to hear about a problem of your own making continuously.

[masterpj]

As for doing lasershows in the netherlands you see exactly the same, the hobbyguys trying to get the gig but lowering the price just to beat their competition. But the event organizing companies have the last laugh There is hardly no profit so they have to buy china crap or buy stuff from a hobbyist.

For most raves and parties the standards are low.. but for actual corporate work they go out to seek stuff.. If you literally "just do the lasers and nothing special" then yeah you are in that "cheap rave only" area..
But if you offer something unique rather then just cheap talk .. (because indeed talk is cheap) then you don't fall in that ballpark.

If a milling shop cannot compete with said "hobbyist" then the milling shop which should be specialised and properly geared up.... isn't doing a very good job.
Then again.. there was the profession of milkman in the past... which now is absolete... in a industry that grows some sections just become too oversatured and filled that competing is really difficult..
To me local is when I need somenthing quick. Situations like "oh a screw is missing".. "Don't have the right screwdriver" But I want to get it done right now.. I'll pay more because I can have it right there right now.
The other advantage to local is that you can be present if a misunderstanding takes place or you aren't sure what to expect.. or when you need something to be re-made that you have with you physically and do not want to send off.... anything really that you needs the benefit of time and presence.. thats where they earn on mostly