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Thread: A plea for safety, pl edition.

  1. #91
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    I instantly thought of labia, but couldn't work out where the laser went


    (and then I did....)


    @dsli_jon - it's been a curiosity of mine for ages. How on earth do you manage to consistently type posts with just so much sodding punctuation!!? It must take ages! It takes nearly as long to read by the time you've tried to work out the inflections! Do you just have some sort of random punctuation macro, because I'm not entirely sure it adds a whole lot (bit like Marc when he used to SHOUT a lot...)

  2. #92
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    . I think it is really silly how you get so fed up by the danger of theses new diodes before anything have happened, and you just know laser pointers are to blame.[/QUOTE]

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    I'm equally vocal about scan heads emitting static beams.

    This comes down to the mathematics of what is now known as "RISK MANAGEMENT"
    and the hard to quantify part known as "human behavior"

    What this power level of visible laser, in this form, does is erode the buffer mechanisms , both legal, financial and technological, that have been in place for decades, if it is made easily available.

    As you crank the power levels of common devices up, and increase the numbers of users, you are eroding the statistical buffer built into the safety standards when they were developed. There is a somewhat arbitrary line in the physics where scattered light from viewing the dot close up becomes as much as a hazard as a direct beam entering the eye. That point has to be evaluated on a case by case basis, and for many situations the only way to find the levels is to measure them in situ and run the calculations.

    Above a certain power point, there are statistical probabilities of injury. Those probabilities are increasing with this device installed in a hand held, and increasing almost as fast installed in a fast scanner. Above a certain point, its no longer a probability but becomes a certainty. That is the argument in a nutshell. I don't need to see injuries happening, I can make a good case with the mathematics, or I can make my case from the power level needed for lesions in patients undergoing eye treatment.

    Lasers above a certain power level require education and training. PERIOD.
    In some cases that education can be self motivated and attained by reading and practicing with lower power. But in most cases, it needs to be a rule, not a option. Some people, no matter what age, never quite get it.

    This is widget that many think should he sold at any level with no precautions other then a small label, if that. That is my issue, wanting to make a quick buck, with disregard of others and denying the fact that education is a requirement. And denying the fact that at some level. these powers do not belong in public unless installed in a legal artistic or show display that complies with ANSI , 21 CFR, or IEC (insert your neighborhood regulator here)

    pointers, more so then other devices, tend to bring the sloppy human factor into play, simple because there are far more of them.

    I'm told this has now reached the attention of the powers that be, so I will now restrict my participation to actual questions, not the philosophy of free will.

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 06-08-2010 at 11:38.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulFeast View Post
    Anybody here make labby style heatsinks? I want to make my 445nm diode (once I get it) a labby. Not a pointer, Class IV would be too dangerous in a pointer. 300mW, MAYBE 400mW, but 600+, I just don't think it's safe. So I want to know if there are any members on here that make good heatsinks that I could use for a labby. Just PM me, I don't want to derail this thread, so don't post on this thread if you do, or know somebody that does.
    Laser show stuff gets bolted to metal base plates, and we size the plate to remove the heat, adding more metal with fins as needed.

    A laser of this power in show service usually gets a 15 or 25 mm tall solid square "MOUNTING BLOCK or "DIODE MOUNT" bolted to a 1/4" thick AL plate. The DIODE MOUNT usually also holds the lens.

    You can get a small plate from McMaster-CARR cheap, or buy a heatsink extrusion

    http://www.wakefield.com/PDF/extruded_heat_sink.pdf

    What the LPF folks do is buy a stock EXTRUDED heatsink, drill it and resell it.

    Try Mouser, Digikey Alltronics, or All Electronics as vendors.

    You want a fairly big one, 1.5 inches or more on a side.

    We now return you to the safety thread. further questions on heatsinks and mounts go in the hardware thread please!

    Please be careful and adjust or use at low power until you have a grasp of the safety.

    Steve
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by buffo View Post
    Safety blah blah SELEM sign this etc
    Adam
    I don't blame you one bit for making people sign something... honestly I am surprised it hasn't been an issue before... the last time I went to SELEM I was pretty annoyed when certain shows would blast a bunch of static beams towards my face.... and you guys standing in front of all those projectors, man, you guys are crazy! lol

    not that I would ever sue anyone, I know what I am getting myself into, which is why I stay out of beam paths

    as far as the whole 445 safety thing, in the end I think a strongly worded warning is really all you can do, trying to go preach isnt going to help anything, nor is trying to make a big stink about them etc...

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixedgas View Post
    . ....

    I'm equally vocal about scan heads emitting static beams.

    ....Steve
    YEP!!

    As many of us that have been around PL for a while and taken in a few state-side LEM events will attest, he will definitely take aim at anyone who pushed the "stupid" boundary with lasers, be they high-powered hand-held pointers, or enclosed in laser projection systems.

    Which is a good thing for all concerned.

    I think the problem with LPF is that the more vocal (and often immature) "bad apples" get all the attention, and those that try to pursue the hobby correctly & safely get lost in the background.

    Conversely, the discussions on PL generally lead towards SAFE, technical solutions to the our various hobby challenges, most of them with the overall goal of presenting SAFE visual laser displays. And yes, we take a few "liberties" at our LEM's, but we take them knowing we expose ONLY ourselves to any potential hazards, since they are CLOSED, INVITATION-ONLY events. Even our infamous "toy helicopter incident" was in a VERY controlled section of that particular location, with controlled, limited access.

    You're not likely to see anyone who has invested the time & expense in a laser projection system being stupid enough to just randomly blast it at anyone in the general public, or aim it at flying aircraft (my personal peeve...) just for some cheap thrill.

    Unfortunately, that happens far too often with the readily-available high-power laser pointers, and in the end it makes us ALL look bad, whether we're from PL, LPF, or other individual hobbiests & pros just trying to do it right.
    Last edited by Stuka; 06-08-2010 at 17:46.
    RR

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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by buffo View Post
    False analogy. It's more like the race car driver is going 150 mph down a closed race course, and a deer jumps out. In that case, the driver (and the deer) are toast, but there are no fans in the audience to get hurt when his car explodes and sends engine and chassis fragments into the stands.Adam
    Perhaps you are correct about that analogy. I suppose my point should have been that going 150mph at all is a bit reckless. There is a difference between being safe and telling someone that unsafe conditions exist and that if they get hurt it is their problem. It would be like going to a gun range where everyone just starts shooting stuff after signing a waiver. That's just crazy and reckless. From what I understand, LEMs aren't too far from that. Basically, you have a bunch of experienced people who know what they are doing, right? But isn't it regular practice to invite people to a LEM as soon as they show up on the board? So, what if they show up with a scanner or pointer and blast some guy that happens to be walking by? I am sure someone experienced might correct them or ask them to leave but by that time it is too late.

    Do you see where I am going with this? What I am saying is that at LEMs you are doing things that are generally thought to be unsafe but in a loosely controlled environment. And by saying "loosely controlled" I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. What I suspect is that there is absolutely no control other than assuming people there know what they are doing and that there is nothing to prevent some idiot from accidentally blasting someone.

    If I am wrong, please correct me. Otherwise, how can you say that it is safe?

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by norty303 View Post
    I instantly thought of labia, but couldn't work out where the laser went

    (and then I did....)
    That only works that way with Laserscopes.


  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    Perhaps you are correct about that analogy. I suppose my point should have been that going 150mph at all is a bit reckless. There is a difference between being safe and telling someone that unsafe conditions exist and that if they get hurt it is their problem. It would be like going to a gun range where everyone just starts shooting stuff after signing a waiver. That's just crazy and reckless. From what I understand, LEMs aren't too far from that. Basically, you have a bunch of experienced people who know what they are doing, right? But isn't it regular practice to invite people to a LEM as soon as they show up on the board? So, what if they show up with a scanner or pointer and blast some guy that happens to be walking by? I am sure someone experienced might correct them or ask them to leave but by that time it is too late.

    Do you see where I am going with this? What I am saying is that at LEMs you are doing things that are generally thought to be unsafe but in a loosely controlled environment. And by saying "loosely controlled" I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. What I suspect is that there is absolutely no control other than assuming people there know what they are doing and that there is nothing to prevent some idiot from accidentally blasting someone.

    If I am wrong, please correct me. Otherwise, how can you say that it is safe?
    I'm sure Buffo will reply on his own, but I'll provide my own correction -

    These LEM's are not some huge, uncontrolled swap-shop event where just anyone can show up and grab a spot.

    CLOSED events, LIMITED access, NOT open to the public.

    First of all, events such as SELEM (probably the best-known LEM in the US) require payment from each attendee to cover the cost of the venue, so it's not just "walk in off the street".

    Yes, new PL members are invited, because LEM's are a GREAT way to share some hands-on knowedge and building experience - plus, not too many hobbiests would otherwise get the opportunity to see and participate in perfectly-synchronized multi-projector shows!

    Additionally, the attendee roster is generally pretty small (20-ish is probably a good average), and basically everyone knows everyone. Projector space and required utility access is limited, so it's EXTREMELY unlikley that a person could just "sneak" a projector in and blaze away.

    We're very aware of what is going on, and self governing. We KNOWINGLY push the laser experience beyond what would be considered safe for public viewing, but do so only because it is NOT for public viewing.

    SELEM is routinely visited by some VERY big names in the professional laser business, and I doubt very seriously if they would attend if it were nothing more than an uncontrolled free-for-all.

    Perhaps before commenting, you should investigate the subject a bit more -
    or maybe even attend one first so you'll know what the hell you're talking about...
    RR

    Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
    1979.
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  9. #99
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    I was at SELEM last year. I know what I am talking about.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    I was at SELEM last year. I know what I am talking about.
    OK -

    So why the mystery posting?

    "It would be like going to a gun range where everyone just starts shooting stuff after signing a waiver. That's just crazy and reckless. From what I understand, LEMs aren't too far from that. Basically, you have a bunch of experienced people who know what they are doing, right? But isn't it regular practice to invite people to a LEM as soon as they show up on the board? So, what if they show up with a scanner or pointer and blast some guy that happens to be walking by?"

    So, since you attended last year and seem to know so much about it -
    What is it about our CLOSED to the public LEM that makes you want to compare it to uncontrolled reckless firing at a shooting range?

    Who did you attend with?

    I see from your profile - with no details, and with your massive post count - you just recently joined the forum.
    I would think that if you had "issues" with the SELEM experience, you would have mentioned it a little closer to the end of the event, such as sometime around late August, 2009.

    You're not just another LPF member trying to stir stuff up, are you?
    Last edited by Stuka; 06-08-2010 at 15:18.
    RR

    Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
    1979.
    Sweet.....

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