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Thread: A plea for safety, pl edition.

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuka View Post
    I think the problem with LPF is that the more vocal (and often immature) "bad apples" get all the attention, and those that try to pursue the hobby correctly & safely get lost in the background.

    Conversely, the discussions on PL generally lead towards SAFE, technical solutions to the our various hobby challenges, most of them with the overall goal of presenting SAFE visual laser displays. And yes, we take a few "liberties" at our LEM's, but we take them knowing we expose ONLY ourselves to any potential hazards, since they are CLOSED, INVITATION-ONLY events. Even out infamous "toy helicopter incident" was in a VERY controlled section of that particular location, with controlled, limited access.

    You're not likely to see anyone who has invested the time & expense in a laser projection system being stupid enough to just randomly blast it at anyone in the general public, or aim it at flying aircraft (my personal peeve...) just for some cheap thrill.

    Unfortunately, that happens far too often with the readily-available high-power laser pointers, and in the end it makes us ALL look bad, whether we're from PL, LPF, or other individual hobbiests & pros just trying to do it right.
    I agree with your first paragraph above, but suggest that many of those you mention are in the "veteran" clique with unnaturally high "positive rep", giving them the power to ban or otherwise push away any challenge to their authority or opinions.

    Also, those posting regularly here have generally had to address the safety issues related to lasers and their public use. That's partly why the ILDA was formed. Safety must be #1 with anyone using a laser in public. Safety should be #1 with lasers in private too.

    The irresponsible packaging of more than a few mW into hand held cases is what LPF is all about. It disregards ALL the safety rules. Recommending goggles is ridiculous (my opinion, no disrespect intended). The only reason pointer people have lasers is to see the beam. Why would they wear goggles? OK, maybe to see the match they're lighting. Besides, it's usually everyone else who need the goggles, not the operator! And many pointer people have many different wavelengths in their collections. Expensive goggles for all guests, for each wavelength? C'mon ...........

    Real safety with laser light is in control of access to the beam (including scattered and reflected light) and the beam's termination. Mounting lasers with output of more than a few mW in hand held cases disregards and disrespects all the work done by those in the laser light show industry to keep the government off their backs. It's unsafe, unethical, illegal, and foolish, despite being really cool. At least mount them like pistols and rifles instead of like flashlights. It's the flashlight shape that tells me they're part of a Star Wars fantasy, and the real power of the beam is misunderstood by the user.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert hess View Post

    The irresponsible packaging of more than a few mW into hand held cases is what LPF is all about. It disregards ALL the safety rules. Recommending goggles is ridiculous (my opinion, no disrespect intended). The only reason pointer people have lasers is to see the beam. Why would they wear goggles? OK, maybe to see the match they're lighting. Besides, it's usually everyone else who need the goggles, not the operator! And many pointer people have many different wavelengths in their collections. Expensive goggles for all guests, for each wavelength? C'mon ...........
    I am calming down about the LPF bashing because it increasingly seems to me that it's a cultural thing that may only reflect underlying opinion about the non-PL fraternity at large. I don't necessarily agree with the first highlighted comment as I think this is a perfect example of my first sentence but the last one, in contrast, I would like to point out my own take on this. I personally buy goggles in pairs. This is precisely so I can show another guest my hobby, (one at a time of course!). How many of you own pointers above 5mW without the necessary approved safety features? (Judging by the helicopter video, a fair few... )

    I do not expect to change a collective mind except to show that tarring all with the same brush is a mistake. Crossovers can take place and I hope to prove that. It may be better to mention all other forums and chat rooms, (laser surplus forum or whatever, Laser community, etc), than just to pick on LPF. It may be the biggest but may not be as representative as these posts appear. Incidentally, I think the flashlight housing choices are merely ones of convenience rather than a sci-fi desire to be a jedi. I find them inconvenient for the simple reasons laserman532 clearly understands: You can't keep them still as they roll off flat surfaces and this could destroy a perfectly good build! Aesthetically, however, they work well in this format.

    I am getting to grips with the emotive issues here and would like to stay, if you'll have me, but I might feel compelled to speak out occasionally if I read what I consider to be unjust or misdirected comments. If I am wrong at those times then I expect to be told so, and hope you'll forgive me, but I try to choose my battles well.

    Thanks,

    M
    Last edited by Morgan; 06-08-2010 at 18:56.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan View Post
    ... I might feel compelled to speak out occasionally if I read what I consider to be unjust comments. If I am wrong at those times then I expect to be told so, and hope you'll forgive me, but I try to choose my battles well.
    We wouldn't want it any other way...

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by allthatwhichis View Post
    We wouldn't want it any other way...
    Why thank you sir...

    M

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by buffo View Post
    All of the people in that video knew what they were doing. Was it a bad example? Yes. Was it unsafe? No, not in my opinion. Everyone there knew what the risks were, and no one got hit in the eye. Having said that, I do agree that it's a lousy example to set, and I'm embarrassed that the video was uploaded. Perhaps it's a good reminder to all of us to be mindful of our actions.
    I don't think there is any reason for remorse or explanation.


    • Was this dangerous? NO
    • Was this illegal? NO
    • Was this reckless? NO

    Just because some people over at LPF want to find an error in a silly video because it makes them feel better about themselves doesn't mean we are in any way in error. What do you do with a laser pen? Show it off to your friends because you are cool? God forbid if you don't have OD1000 laser goggles to go around. Give me a fucking break.

    Life is full of chances, Every time you get in a car you are challenging death. When I go to the shooting range, everyone is NOT dressed in body armor. We merely respect the fact that firearms are dangerous and don't haphazardly point them at people.

    As far as I know, we have had ZERO eye injuries at ANY of the LEM's and I aim,,, (no pun intended) to keep it that way.

    If SOME people on LPF want to get all PMS'ey about a video, let them. Who gives a shit.

    So sayith the editor and poster of said video...
    Adam

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300EVIL View Post
    I don't think there is any reason for remorse or explanation.


    • Was this dangerous? NO
    • Was this illegal? NO
    • Was this reckless? NO
    Just because some people over at LPF want to find an error in a silly video because it makes them feel better about themselves doesn't mean we are in any way in error. What do you do with a laser pen? Show it off to your friends because you are cool? God forbid if you don't have OD1000 laser goggles to go around. Give me a fucking break.

    Life is full of chances, Every time you get in a car you are challenging death. When I go to the shooting range, everyone is NOT dressed in body armor. We merely respect the fact that firearms are dangerous and don't haphazardly point them at people.

    As far as I know, we have had ZERO eye injuries at ANY of the LEM's and I aim,,, (no pun intended) to keep it that way.

    If SOME people on LPF want to get all PMS'ey about a video, let them. Who gives a shit.

    So sayith the editor and poster of said video...
    Adam
    I wasn't getting PMS'ey about the video if this was in response to my mention of it. Just pointing out, (no pun intended either), that we all have pointers above 5mW without the regulation safety features. Only OD4 googles for me, (Yes, googles! Problem with the way I say it?!!! ), at the moment.

    When I first saw that video, maybe about a year ago, I thought the irony was spot on and had a good laugh.

    I hope I read the highlighted, "SOME people on LPF... ", in the right spirit and take no offense myself.

    M

  7. #107
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    [QUOTE=Morgan;149429]Why thank you sir...

    , welcome aboard...

    Steve
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    When I still could have...

  8. #108
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    [QUOTE=mixedgas;149439]
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan View Post
    Why thank you sir...

    , welcome aboard...

    Steve
    steve, I love you but for the love of god please use the [ QUOTE] tags correctly, it makes your posts really difficult to read lol

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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan View Post
    I am calming down about the LPF bashing because it increasingly seems to me that it's a cultural thing that may only reflect underlying opinion about the non-PL fraternity at large. I don't necessarily agree with the first highlighted comment as I think this is a perfect example of my first sentence ...

    Thanks,

    M
    I'd be happy to debate the validity of my opinion about what LPF's all about, and I think we could actually do it here without derailment by babies or the fear of being banned as they do so frivolously there, but not in this thread.

    I'm also a solar observer and telescope builder. There's a very popular ATM site, Cloudynights, that has a solar filter section. A few years ago, a very popular solar telescope with included filter was introduced on the market for like 1/8 the price of the next closest entry level filter. It was a small scope, however, so a number of builders started removing the filter elements and building larger telescopes with them. Very experienced optics people. The site, however, completely prohibits anything about modification of those telescopes. They won't even allow pictures taken with such modified equipment. The reason is that they've been advised that they could be liable for injuries caused by their promotion of such modification. And yet, there's LPF. And I don't mean that in a "bashing" way. I don't like the Cloudynights extreme either, but I want to know what they've been told.

    I also made pipe cannons with M-80s as a kid, experimented with chemicals, built and flew model rockets, rode my bike without a helmet (and still do), and look at the sun through a telescope (with the proper filters that I've personally modified). Soccer moms and schoolmarms are against all these things. I don't know where the line should be drawn, but when I hold a laser in my hand that's over a few mW's, I know it's not safe. As much as I love lasers, I really believe there's something very wrong about any website promoting such unsafe things to do with them.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan View Post
    I wasn't getting PMS'ey about the video if this was in response to my mention of it. Just pointing out, (no pun intended either), that we all have pointers above 5mW without the regulation safety features. Only OD4 googles for me, (Yes, googles! Problem with the way I say it?!!! ), at the moment.

    When I first saw that video, maybe about a year ago, I thought the irony was spot on and had a good laugh.

    I hope I read the highlighted, "SOME people on LPF... ", in the right spirit and take no offense myself.

    M
    Hey Morgan,
    No, it's this guy's comment that i'm responding to.

    Quote Originally Posted by FML View Post
    If you feel safe wearing OD4 goggles when using one of your laser pointers, that's fine by me. Just don't ever take one of your 5+mW laser pointers where it's visible by other people without providing enough eye protection to go around. Have you ever shown your pointers to a friend?

    I have 3 different pairs of laser safety goggles for my protection and know when they are needed and when they are not. Flying a 200mW @532nm spot around a room is not one of them.

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