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Thread: A plea for safety, pl edition.

  1. #121
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    Dear John -

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    I don't feel obligated to respond to 10th grade level conversation. If you want to ask me a question, do it in a professional manner.
    I asked you in no-less 'professional' a manner, in post #43, than you 'presented yourself' in your previous posts - if you wanna enter the discussion with your 'satire gloves' on, fine - I clearly enjoy a good round or two... You *ignored* me, 3x, I goaded you, here we are. Perfect.

    And no, you don't 'owe' me a reply, yadda yadda - but as you'll quickly learn here in PL, if you're gonna 'dish it out' you gotta be prepared to 'take it'.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    I typically just don't waste time (as I am now) responding to people like you.
    And how 'am I', oh great sage of sages? Please, do tell me all about myself, cause I clearly have an identity crisis...Help me, Mommy, help me!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    But, if it makes you stop asking... I have not proposed anything other than pointing out that it is ridiculous to even bother talking about regulating these things when no one here is the sole provider of them....but the reality is that you won't make a difference at all. In fact, the people who want the diodes will have found an alternative to your regulated selling before they even approach you.
    Wrong. The 'purpose' of speaking up HERE, was because there are SEVERAL PL-members, who were / are quite 'active' harvesters / re-sellers over at 'LFP' and who-knows where else. At least ONE of those members, has since-reading the FACTUAL info, presented in this and other threads, here on PL, on the UN-SAFE aspects of hacking these things, re-THOUGHT being a 're-seller' and at, least, has stated he will be 'more selective' to-whom he sells - making sure the buyers are 'qualified' / experienced, at least, with Class IV lasers.. that's all I ever advocated, for one. And - what is the 'Title' of this thread, John? "A plea for Safety" - NOT a plea to STOP the affordable blue.

    By your reasoning, (since you are so fond of parables and illustrations) all little boys, as soon as thier bodies can handle it, might as-well be brought to hookers and given whisky and smack and whatever the frack else they wanna do, cause - hey- 'they're gonna do it anyway' / get it somewhere else... if you try to educate or 'regulate' them, it won't make a difference, anyway... ...yeah, God help your kids...

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    To summarize, I am just rolling my eyes at the whole notion of contacting Casio and regulation. I know how that will end up.
    Oh, reeealy? And do-tell us, oh seer of seers - just what, exactly, was the intent and purpose of the person who simply mentioned the idea of 'calling Casio's phone call to-them? What was he going to SAY to them on the call? Do-tell us, oh Great Groundhog:

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    Also, I was pointing out that there are plenty instances on here of not practicing what is preached. Everyone loves to point out when someone is doing something that might be wrong on here. Even if it is only potentially bad.
    CORRECTION - "wrong" can-be subjective. UNsafe is the concern. Do things get done by PL-members that might-be 'unsafe'? Do YOU drive on a road that has only 2 'yellow lines' between you and oncoming injury / death? Do YOU chew and swallow food? Do YOU ride a bike? Chew gum? - Now, are ALL of those, here, that do-work with 'dangerous' devices - irresponsible, with them??

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    It's almost to the point of a new person coming in, stating they have a 500mw scanner, and then having 10 people jump on them and tell them that they need to start thinking about safety and that they need to take a step back and learn from the "experienced people on here." But, I claim that the level of experience on here is imaginary. Doing laser shows in your backyard for your dog does not make you a laser professional. And neither does spending $100 to join ILDA, for which you get nothing but an ILDA email address for a year and access to documentation that really does you no good.
    You know what? You're a Royale with Cheese. And I don't say this because I am somehow 'insulted' by you. I say that because all of what you just said is wrong on so many levels, that your tenability is sub-zero.

    OK, Mr Smarty Pants, I want you to PROVE your claims: I challenge you to list all the PL-members, here who's experience is "imaginary" - I wanna know WHO they are, and WHAT their experience, with lasers (and therefore, relevance to PL / qualification to offer advice, herewithin) is, exactly... Go on, we're listening:

    - PROVE, with posts, that the people on here, that 'jump on' every guy with a '500mW scanner' are being self-serving:

    - PROVE, with posts, that the people here WITH ACTUAL experience with lasers, for 'Lassie' or otherwise, do-so to 'claim' - or actually do-claim - that they are "laser professionals":


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    And finally, my comments about LEMs were nothing more than an attempt to of an example of careless behavior. LEMs could be made safe so that even if you want to get a laser in the face it would be hard. Areas with beams could be roped off. Electrical equipmement could be placed more thoughtfully. But instead, people just cram as much as they can in a small space and hope everything goes well and that everyone knows what they are doing. It's like merging in traffic without blinkers or slowing down and hoping that everyone around you lets you in. Part of being a responsible laserists is making damn well sure that what you are doing will not cause harm to others even if some nutjob wants to be harmed.
    You know what? Here, I can agree with ONE small point you've made - there can ALWAYS be ways to improve on safety, even-if, 100% of true-accidents, can and will-never be prevented, as you so wryly pointed out in your 'woodworker' parable.

    So, then, we'll be expecting you on the Schedule of Lecturers at SELEM 2010, in August, to 'school us all', right?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    So, as you see, the cat does not have my tongue. Do you have a picture of a foot in your mouth to show me now?
    No, sorry... I only see yours. And the 'cat picture' was spot-on.

    TTFN...
    j
    Last edited by dsli_jon; 06-09-2010 at 23:30. Reason: removed naughty high-school words
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by White-Light View Post



    Well there's nothing in the video that was reckless. Maybe there were implications in pointing it at a helicopter but even then there was a disclaimer making it quite clear that this was a bit of fun and that against a real aircraft that wasn't something that should be done. The point is it was a plastic RC helicopter and no pointers were pointed in anyones faces.

    Like it or not, the history of your country shows week in and week out people pointing pointers at real life aircraft, police officers and people in clubs and yet you say pointers aren't a problem. I could post dozens of press links, all relating to pointer abuse. Maybe pointers are not a problem for most of you responsible owners but there are a lot of irresponsible ones out there. Try putting your own house in order before bitching over here about projector safety.


    To be fair I don't think FML mentioned projector safety. More that the claims, (in general posts up to the last couple of days), that LPFers are not responsible enough to own and use handhelds safely, when this video shows just the sort of behaviour an uneducated outsider should not copy. Let's face it, even the first time I saw it I cringed when the chopper failed to maintain altitude as I could see in that split second someone following it down with the beam and hitting someone in the crossfire, (this didn't happen but a second's fixation on the chopper and not on those around it... It easily could've).

    I do see a little bit of tempering regards LPF being the euphemism for irresponsible laser use however and that is heartening. Posts do now include phrases like, "SOME LPF users..."; "Maybe pointers are not a problem for most of you responsible owners..."; etc. This is good. Yes, the irresponsible are abound and we ALL must be vigilant. Vigilant; but not vigilante. Pointers may be a problem, but not in most of the hands of those that know the science and those people inhabit both forums.

    I know FML and he is a huge contributor on, "The other forum". Maybe he has something to offer here too?

    M

  3. #123
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    My way of looking at it is we're all laser enthusiasts, and while there may be different views and opinions, we'd all benefit more from working together.

    I have great respect for all laser enthusiasts, providing they aren't endangering anyone or doing anything illegal (selling illegal pointers or kits to circumvent the law where prohibited, etc). I have a feeling the fair amount of those at lpf are enthusiasts and scientific minded (the average joe would buy it at dx, etc), and I respect those people.

    That being said, I just don't get it Admittedly I have an 18mw 532nm pointer I bought years ago, but after the initial fun it sat on the shelf collecting dust. Later I tore it apart and built me a mirror motor / speaker bounce show lol.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by norty303 View Post

    If there's one thing I've learned since joining this forum, its 'agendas'. Seriously, the backbiting, backstabbing and general infighting is unbelievable, but it carries a happy facade mostly.

    'Control' is a key word I think....
    I'm probably the only one with an agenda against LPF, and for very good reasons. But you'll notice, however, that I'm not being attacked personally for my opinions here as people are there, indicating the higher level of tolerance and and maturity of the posters here. No banning drum beat. No sophomoric rep points being thrown around like high-fives or scarlet letters. Nobody with nearly twice as many posts as anybody else confusing post count with real laser experience, or the ability to moderate instead of simply sweep under rug (or shunning).

    Yeah I have an agenda, but I've also worked with Class 4 lasers every day at work and at home since 1980, and I'm obviously biased more against handheld lasers over a few milliWatts and LPF's "groupthink" than the many good people who post there responsibly.

  5. #125
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    John Yayas pushed 100% recyclable electrons around to articulate:

    "
    And neither does spending $100 to join ILDA, for which you get nothing but an ILDA email address for a year and access to documentation that really does you no good."

    ILDA is what you make of it. I assure you ILDA members are very helpful, for the most part. The Executive Director answers the phone, unlike many organizations I have belonged to. ILDA is has one part time paid employee and all other participation, board, techcomm, safety, etc is voluntary. If it were not for ILDA, laserists and possibly non-governmental scientific users would have had no voice on SAE G10, and you could have had NO outdoor use of lasers in the US.


    George Santayana said something like:

    "Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.", Perhaps you should look at the sum of ILDA's past accomplishments before you are so polarized.

    The ILDA file formats, the ILDA connector, may be technological compromises, but if you have anything to do with display lasers, you benefit from them.


    Granted ILDA has its critics, but it is only as strong as those who volunteer.

    And I''m not even a ILDA member. Used to be, but the budget hit hard times and that had to go.

    I'm curious Mr Yayas, do you do laser shows for profit or work with lasers, or laser safety, or do theatrical work?, as part of your job or studies?

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 06-09-2010 at 08:13.
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    When I still could have...

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post
    Dear John -



    I asked you in no-less 'professional' a manner, in post #43, than you 'presented yourself' in your previous posts - if you wanna enter the discussion with your 'satire gloves' on, fine - I clearly enjoy a good round or two... You *ignored* me, 3x, I goaded you, here we are. Perfect.

    And no, you don't 'owe' me a reply, yadda yadda - but as you'll quickly learn here in PL, if you're gonna 'dish it out' you gotta be prepared to 'take it'.



    And how 'am I', oh great sage of sages? Please, do tell me all about myself, cause I clearly have an identity crisis...Help me, Mommy, help me!!



    Wrong. The 'purpose' of speaking up HERE, was because there are SEVERAL PL-members, who were / are quite 'active' harvesters / re-sellers over at 'LFP' and who-knows where else. At least ONE of those members, has since-reading the FACTUAL info, presented in this and other threads, here on PL, on the UN-SAFE aspects of hacking these things, re-THOUGHT being a 're-seller' and at, least, has stated he will be 'more selective' to-whom he sells - making sure the buyers are 'qualified' / experienced, at least, with Class IV lasers.. that's all I ever advocated, for one. And - what is the 'Title' of this thread, John? "A plea for Safety" - NOT a plea to STOP the affordable blue.

    By your reasoning, (since you are so fond of parables and illustrations) all little boys, as soon as thier bodies can handle it, might as-well be brought to hookers and given whisky and smack and whatever the frack else they wanna do, cause - hey- 'they're gonna do it anyway' / get it somewhere else... if you try to educate or 'regulate' them, it won't make a difference, anyway... ...yeah, God help your kids...



    Oh, reeealy? And do-tell us, oh seer of seers - just what, exactly, was the intent and purpose of the person who simply mentioned the idea of 'calling Casio's phone call to-them? What was he going to SAY to them on the call? Do-tell us, oh Great Groundhog:



    CORRECTION - "wrong" can-be subjective. UNsafe is the concern. Do things get done by PL-members that might-be 'unsafe'? Do YOU drive on a road that has only 2 'yellow lines' between you and oncoming injury / death? Do YOU chew and swallow food? Do YOU ride a bike? Chew gum? - Now, are ALL of those, here, that do-work with 'dangerous' devices - irresponsible, with them??



    You know what? You're an IDIOT. And I don't say this because I am somehow 'insulted' by you. I say that because all of what you just said is wrong on so many levels, that your tenability is sub-zero.

    OK, Mr Smarty Pants, I want you to PROVE your claims: I challenge you to list all the PL-members, here who's experience is "imaginary" - I wanna know WHO they are, and WHAT their experience, with lasers (and therefore, relevance to PL / qualification to offer advice, herewithin) is, exactly... Go on, we're listening:

    - PROVE, with posts, that the people on here, that 'jump on' every guy with a '500mW scanner' are being self-serving:

    - PROVE, with posts, that the people here WITH ACTUAL experience with lasers, for 'Lassie' or otherwise, do-so to 'claim' - or actually do-claim - that they are "laser professionals":




    You know what? Here, I can agree with ONE small point you've made - there can ALWAYS be ways to improve on safety, even-if, 100% of true-accidents, can and will-never be prevented, as you so wryly pointed out in your 'woodworker' parable.

    So, then, we'll be expecting you on the Schedule of Lecturers at SELEM 2010, in August, to 'school us all', right?



    No, sorry... I only see yours. And the 'cat picture' was spot-on.

    TTFN...
    j
    Just to be clear, I am purposely not replying to you for reasons stated above. If you want to have a respectful and mature conversation send me a PM. I am not going to respond to name calling and emoticons. Thats for high schoolers.

  7. #127
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    [QUOTE=JohnYayas;149501]....

    And finally, my comments about LEMs were nothing more than an attempt to of an example of careless behavior. LEMs could be made safe so that even if you want to get a laser in the face it would be hard. Areas with beams could be roped off. Electrical equipmement could be placed more thoughtfully. But instead, people just cram as much as they can in a small space and hope everything goes well and that everyone knows what they are doing. It's like merging in traffic without blinkers or slowing down and hoping that everyone around you lets you in. Part of being a responsible laserists is making damn well sure that what you are doing will not cause harm to others even if some nutjob wants to be harmed.

    ...QUOTE]

    Dude -

    You don't need to be attending LEM's, because it doesn't appear you're listening to much we say about them, or have some different idea about what you think they should be!

    • LEMS are NOT about "nutjobs that want to be harmed" - nor are they some "science fair" scenario for the general public to attend. They're about groups of laserists given the opportunity to gather in a CLOSED venue for a PRIVATE event. Events like SELEM give the hobbiests (the bulk of the attendees) the opportunities to experience the real capabilities of their laser projector efforts in ways most could never experience otherwise!

    • Everyone that attends knows upfront that this will be the chance to not only share ideas & methods, but to push the limits of shows beyond what any of us would ever think about doing in a PUBLIC performance. With that opportunity comes additional risks WE accept, and WE are the only ones that might be potentially exposed to that risk. We still take safety VERY seriously, and even when pushing show limits, it's done in a way that everything can still be viewed safely by those that want to stay in a "laser-safe" zone.

    • Yes, we have a lot of equipment crammed into a fairly small area, and admittedly, things get a bit congested - but again, it's OUR gear being setup for a PRIVATE event! We don't have the time, space, manpower, or equipment to rig everything like it was a professional show for a public audience - but then again, it's a PRIVATE event in a CLOSED venue, so some of the time, effort, and expenses that would go into public show event aren't really needed.
    Final point - these events aren't organized by professional event planners; they are organized by people with demanding non-related careers and commitments, and in the case of SELEM, organized & attended by people that don't even live in the same state! For most that attend, this is the once-a-year opportunity to experience as much as we can from our hobby (and the friends it includes!) in a single weekend, and we willingly accept the fact that the stage might be a bit crowded, stray beams might occasionally happen (but are actuall pretty rare, thanks to the attention of the attendees), the music is loud, the theatrical smoke sometimes set off the fire alarms, the hours are long, technical issues are the norm etc., etc. - but in the end, when we have multiple projectors on line performing some EXTREMELY cool synchronized shows, it's all worth it!!

    Concerning last SELEM:


    You never did say who you attended with, what the issues were at the meet you attended, and why you're just now addressing this. I'm sure if you have the time & resources to set up a LEM event that meets your expectations, you'll have many willing participants ready to attend. When you do set up your LEM, I hope you'll realize that there is a BIG difference between setting up an event for a public audience, versus setting up a PRIVATE event for hobbiests who want to maximize the potential of their laser equipment.

    As far as SELEM goes, it obviously isn't your "cup of tea", so it might be best if you just remove that one from your calendar.
    RR

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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan View Post
    I do see a little bit of tempering regards LPF being the euphemism for irresponsible laser use however and that is heartening. Posts do now include phrases like, "SOME LPF users..."; "Maybe pointers are not a problem for most of you responsible owners..."; etc. This is good.
    Yes! To be clear, I'm not against laser pointers although I do think they are (unfortunately for those of you who like them), the source of many of the laser related incidents in the US due to their portability.

    I'm not also against members of the LPF, I acknowledge that you are responssible users in the main, if not totally.

    The only point I was trying to make is that when people make attacks on projector use at LEMS it is an entirely different situation as everyone who exposes themselves to laserlight is doing so by choice whatever the exposure level. When someone gets hit by a pointer in the street or in a club, they have no control over the decision to be exposed.

    Clearly high power pointers are a risk but clearly also the pointer itself isn't the danger but the person who's using it. Unfortunately that is difficult to regulate which is why I think the original safety concerns arose.

  9. #129
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    [QUOTE=Stuka;149554Dude -

    You don't need to be attending LEM's, because it doesn't appear you're listening to much we say about them, or have some different idea about what you think they should be!

    As far as SELEM goes, it obviously isn't your "cup of tea", so it might be best if you just remove that one from your calendar.[/QUOTE]

    You are wrong. I have not said they aren't my cup of tea. In fact, I believe it is in my first post or so that I said that I am all for them. And, I never implied that they should be anything other than what they are. My point, and my only point, is that I don't think safety is a big consideration at those events and that there is some hypocrisy in that as related to the finger pointing going on in regards to safety. Or maybe more accurately, there is a false sense of safety because there is an assumption that everyone will behave safely. The latter is a stretch and is the basis of my argument.

    Would you let a 10 yr old kid run around at a LEM? Of course not! Would you let your non-laser friends run around at a LEM? Hopefully not. Would you let someone who is brand new to lasers run around at a LEM? Well, apparently so, as long as they have a PayPal account, know their T-Shirt size, and understand that if they get hurt it's their own problem. Does that sound private and closed to you? Doesn't sound like it to me. How many posts on PL does it take before someone with a scanner crosses the boundary of someone who has an extra $500 to spend and someone who knows what they are doing?

    The fact of the matter is that you only know if you are safe around lasers. And, even that might not necessarily be true. You have no idea if the next guy knows what he is doing. You only assume he does. As long as that is the case, everyone is at risk. Most people will have the sense to avoid the wrong situations. But, there will always exist the chance of a "BP moment" where they think something will be just fine but ends up to the contrary.

    I will accept that a LEM is unsafe and attend it and watch what I am doing. I have enough sense to keep out of trouble most of the time. But, I also know that there is the strong possibility that I might fall down some dark stairs and bust my butt or accidently get shot in the face in the laser if I don't watch my step. LEMs are not safe. But, I am a safe person so I am not worried about it. But, I don't know about the next guy. He could be an idiot. And if he gets hurt, that's his problem. By saying that, I accept that I am not acting responsibly because I should also watch out for others. But, I am not the one that wants to ban diodes from certain people, either.

    Sheesh.

  10. #130
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    Please don't take the fact I was responding to white-light's post as any implication about him, or anyone in particular.

    Only that there is a commercial undercurrent on this forum, and some of the actions of people are directly related.

    Actions I refer to are from before this 445 hysteria, but display a somewhat tasteless approach.

    Look at any discussion about products and you'll see competitors bitching about the others.

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