A plea for safety, pl edition.

[mixedgas]

Mr Yayas,

Your chiming in at a tough time, a lot of people are trying to balance safety with liberty, and some of us are tired of giving up liberties. At the same timer there are folks trying to make a quick buck, forces from outside our nation trying to extract a dollar from us for low cost junk, and folks trying to think long term. A lot of tough words are circulating around here and its because technological people do not "groupthink" that much.

As one wag put it, this new diode is in some ways, with some people, more like a illegal drug then a piece of hardware.

Relax, your entitled to your opinion, and Buffo does NOT ban people from SELEM, unless they are a "clear and present" danger.

We know we need to clean up the cabling, more or less for ground loop prevention, and we will have scaffolding this year.



Steve

[Stuka]

You are wrong. I have not said they aren't my cup of tea. In fact, I believe it is in my first post or so that I said that I am all for them. And, I never implied that they should be anything other than what they are. My point, and my only point, is that I don't think safety is a big consideration at those events and that there is some hypocrisy in that as related to the finger pointing going on in regards to safety. Or maybe more accurately, there is a false sense of safety because there is an assumption that everyone will behave safely. The latter is a stretch and is the basis of my argument.

Would you let a 10 yr old kid run around at a LEM? Of course not! Would you let your non-laser friends run around at a LEM? Hopefully not. Would you let someone who is brand new to lasers run around at a LEM? Well, apparently so, as long as they have a PayPal account, know their T-Shirt size, and understand that if they get hurt it's their own problem. Does that sound private and closed to you? Doesn't sound like it to me. How many posts on PL does it take before someone with a scanner crosses the boundary of someone who has an extra $500 to spend and someone who knows what they are doing?

The fact of the matter is that you only know if you are safe around lasers. And, even that might not necessarily be true. You have no idea if the next guy knows what he is doing. You only assume he does. As long as that is the case, everyone is at risk. Most people will have the sense to avoid the wrong situations. But, there will always exist the chance of a "BP moment" where they think something will be just fine but ends up to the contrary.

I will accept that a LEM is unsafe and attend it and watch what I am doing. I have enough sense to keep out of trouble most of the time. But, I also know that there is the strong possibility that I might fall down some dark stairs and bust my butt or accidently get shot in the face in the laser if I don't watch my step. LEMs are not safe. But, I am a safe person so I am not worried about it. But, I don't know about the next guy. He could be an idiot. And if he gets hurt, that's his problem. By saying that, I accept that I am not acting responsibly because I should also watch out for others. But, I am not the one that wants to ban diodes from certain people, either.

Sheesh.

Always with the negativity, Sheesh....

Yes, they ARE private, closed events - signups for these events happens through THIS forum, well in advance. It would be very difficult for a complete unknown to show at the door the day of the event, pay their money, walk in, and start lasing. As has been said over..and over..and over, these are NOT events open to the general public!

Yes, we ENCOURAGE new folks, and it is a GREAT learning experience for someone who really wants to learn about projector building and operation. I have never seen - or heard of - some "new guy" showing up and causing problems. These events aren't that big; it's highly unlikely that some dumbass bent on causing mayhem could hide unnoticed in the crowd.

And yeah, BP moments happen in the world, but we actually are quite careful to weed out the immature dumbass elements that might attend SELEM.

So, you've managed to avoid all previous requests to find out who you attended with in the past, what specifically pissed you off, and why you are just now making this an issue...
any chance you are a FORMER PL member, resurrected under a different name, just joining in to be a pain in the ass, because you can be?

[White-Light]

Please don't take the fact I was responding to white-light's post as any implication about him, or anyone in particular.

I certainly haven't taken offence nor did I notice any implication myself.

Just for the record though, I haven't complained about these diodes in any way shape or form.

I think a cheap source of diodes is great for this community and just wish someone would now find cheap 457 & 640nm diodes as well. Of course if people like Bridge could find a commercial source and build cheap units as a result, that would be better still both for the end users who don't want to self build from this level, Bridge himself and the resellers.

[Stuka]

...

That is if, I am, invited still.

Steve

Dude - you KNOW you are!
It wouldn't be a SELEM without Uncle Steve around!!!

[flecom]

That is if, I am, invited still.

Steve

damn dude, drama much?

[buffo]

I suppose my point should have been that going 150mph at all is a bit reckless.

For a standard driver on a standard highway, I'd agree with you. For a race car driver on a closed race course, I'd say it's not reckless. (It is, in fact, what race car drivers do for a living...) LEM's are somewhere between these two extremes.

There is a difference between being safe and telling someone that unsafe conditions exist and that if they get hurt it is their problem.

I think I see your objection. Allow me to clarify.

We do not state that SELEM (or any other LEM) is *SAFE*. That has never been the case. We say that the people in attendance generally know how to be safe, but that given the environment (unvarianced projectors, projectors with the side panels removed, multiple projectors operating simultaneously, not to mention 3 phase power wiring exposed in the electrical room), everyone needs to be aware that there are hazardous events occurring pretty much all the time, so the entire event is inherently unsafe.

Previously this was simply assumed to be common knowledge, and that was a mistake on my part. Now it will be explicitly stated beforehand. Why? Because many people (including you, apparently) came to SELEM assuming that it would be safe, and were not ready to accept that it was in fact a hazardous environment. I apologize for that misunderstanding, both to you, and to anyone else who made the same error.

Allow me to give an example. A member last year claimed a possible flash-blind injury as a result of a laser pointer incident at SELEM. (This was never posted publicly.) Later, the alleged injury appeared to heal, and nothing official was ever said or done. Nonetheless, the injury was claimed to have happened at a time when it was obvious that beams were being swept around the room. The person who claimed the injury chose to remain in the room, and then claimed he was struck in the eye.

Personally, I respect the person who reported the injury, and I believe him at his word. This was understandably a serious issue, and while it was never discussed, I did some investigation after SELEM to clarify some things about the incident. First, I went back to the auditorium after SELEM and took some measurements of the distances involved in this alleged incident. I then contacted Casey Stack and provided him with details concerning the laser power, the beam diameter and divergence, and the distance from the pointer to where the person was standing.

Casey ran the numbers, and showed that it was *extremely* unlike that this incident could have caused any detectable change in the person's retina, because of the tiny amount of energy delivered. (below class 3A limit) This confirmed my suspicion that the injury was in fact not caused by the pointer, but since the pointer flash was the only thing the person could remember that was out of the ordinary, it was naturally assumed to be the cause. (Before today, this information has never been made public, even to the people involved in the incident. I apologize for bringing this out, but I do promise to keep the names private.)

This information was held in secrecy, mostly to protect the identities of those involved. However, if it had ever gone public, or worse, if a lawsuit had resulted, I fully intended to have Casey report his findings. Fortunately, it did not come to that. But it did get me thinking about the liability of these events. Even though the laser pointer almost certainly didn't cause the injury, it was not beyond the realm of possibility that the injury could have been caused by other lasers at the event.

The point here is that there was something happening in the room that appeared to be unsafe, at least to some people. (Beams being swept around the room.) Some people chose to leave, others stayed. But no one did the calculations to "prove" that it was safe (at least not until well after the event).

So in that respect, if you don't have a good feeling for what is safe (based on experience), then the smart move is to assume it's unsafe and take appropriate action to protect yourself, right? Regardless of whether it really was safe or not, the failure here is that the person didn't feel the need to act. Why? Because they thought everything would be safe. (oops!) And that perception is what I need to change for SELEM 2010.

Here is another example. We had a 3 watt DPSS green projector in attendance at SELEM last year, and it was projecting into the balcony. Some people made the decision to stand in the path of that projector to see the beams. Personally, this was well beyond my comfort level, so I chose to stay out of it's scan path. (It was *incredibly* bright!) Later, when I ran the numbers for that projector, it was really questionable. There were certain cases where that projector could have caused significant eye injury, even way up in the balcony. But even so, some people wanted to experience that brightness for themselves.

Were they risking an eye injury? Probably, yes. Though it may well have healed in time, there was certainly the potential to cause retinal injury with that projector. And that is why it needs to be explicitly stated that these events are *NOT* billed as inherently safe. True, as a general rule the audience area on the first floor is usually safe, but you never know when someone is going to break out a pointer, or someone who is tuning a scanner will bump a mirror, etc.

And the balcony area is definitely no-mans land, since you are directly in the beam path of multiple projectors. However, as just about any SELEM attendee will tell you, the view from the balcony is absolutely breathtaking. So while it's fun to go up there, it also carries risks. I assumed that everyone up in the balcony understood those risks, and chose to remain there despite the risks. In the future, I will no longer assume this, but will explicitly state the risks in the wavier form.

But isn't it regular practice to invite people to a LEM as soon as they show up on the board?

True, it is. But most newcomers don't even have lasers yet, much less projectors. Also, we're more inclined to cut a little slack for someone who is experienced than for someone who is brand new.

For example, Steve Roberts burned a divot in a steel door with a 4.5 watt beam from a Lexel 95 at SELEM 2008. He did this in the hallway backstage, and no one was wearing goggles. (In fact, I think I had the only argon goggles present at that event, and they were up on stage in a box under my table.) Likewise, DZ lit a cigar off that same beam, and we have a video of it. Would I do that? No way in hell. But he managed, and fortunately he didn't injure himself doing it.

So yes, there are unsafe acts going on, but if a new member wanted to try lighting a cigar off an argon, I'd like to think we would not let him. But by the same token, I'm not going to tell Steve that he can't walk the mirrors on a Lexel 95 without goggles, because the man has been doing it all his life and he knows the risks. And if something freaky happens and he gets a stray reflection off the mount and takes a shot in the eye, he's not going to blame me either.

What I am saying is that at LEMs you are doing things that are generally thought to be unsafe but in a loosely controlled environment. And by saying "loosely controlled" I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. What I suspect is that there is absolutely no control other than assuming people there know what they are doing and that there is nothing to prevent some idiot from accidentally blasting someone.

I agree, it is a loosely controlled environment. However, if someone shows up who is a complete newbie, and that person also happens to own a powerful laser (a perfect example would be "Johnathan" and the Lexel Colorpro that he brought to SELEM last year), then yes, we'll treat him with kid gloves and make sure he's watched closely. (You'll notice that neither Johnathan or his father went up into the balcony last year...)

But am I going to treat Steve Roberts with kid gloves? No way.

I don't think there is any reason for remorse or explanation.

Hey Adam... Re: the laser pointer vs toy helicopter video... I am embarrassed only because it *appears* to be reckless. True, you and I (and the other attendees) know that it was controlled, but that's a hard sell to someone who is just watching the video and doesn't know the back story. That's all.

It's almost to the point of a new person coming in, stating they have a 500mw scanner, and then having 10 people jump on them and tell them that they need to start thinking about safety and that they need to take a step back and learn from the "experienced people on here."

I disagree with this. We don't "jump on people" right away. We usually mention safety as part of the introduction only in cases of new members who specifically state that they are doing (or intend to to) shows for the general public. And the initial safety introduction is almost always very positive and up-beat.

But in cases where people disregard that advice (*cough* DJallen *cough*), then we jump on them. And that's simply a matter of self-preservation. Unsafe public shows threaten us all. Unsafe shows in your mom's basement? not so much.

Doing laser shows in your backyard for your dog does not make you a laser professional.

I have never claimed otherwise. Are you saying that people are claiming this? Because I disagree with that claim.

And neither does spending $100 to join ILDA, for which you get nothing but an ILDA email address for a year and access to documentation that really does you no good.

ILDA membership doesn't give you an ILDA e-mail address. But it does give you access to the people in the industry who can help you. True, you could probably reach them without the ILDA membership, but it's easier to get in touch with them once you're part of the organization. Also, the documents on the ILDA website are quite useful, and cover a wide variety of topics (including safe audience scanning!).

LEMs could be made safe so that even if you want to get a laser in the face it would be hard.

Yes, this is true. But it is anathema to what a LEM is all about. Believe it or not, some people enjoy standing in front of a laser projector, in the scan path. Some call it reckless, others call it art. Personally, so long as we're talking about a relatively low-power projector (400-600 mw range) and a respectable distance away (25-30 ft), I agree that it is beautiful.

Once you get above a watt, I start to worry for my eyesight, even at twice that distance. It also becomes uncomfortably bright, at least to my eyes. But as I've posted before, on the ILDA cruise in 2008, we had people standing in front of 3 watt projectors for the Laseoff... Some were no further than 20 ft away! Different strokes for different folks....

I don't think safety is a big consideration at those events and that there is some hypocrisy in that as related to the finger pointing going on in regards to safety.

There is no hypocrisy. Safety at a public laser show is crucial. You absolutely can not bend the rules - ever. Safety at a private LEM (or in your Mom's basement, for that matter) is something completely different. In that case, you are on your own, so it's up to you to decide what you deem appropriate.

I believe you are still hung up on the idea that SELEM (or any other LEM) should be set up just like a commercial laser show for the public. And if that's really what you want, then I encourage you to organize your own LEM and do that. But after 10 LEM's, I've learned that this is not what the vast majority of people want. (And judging by the ILDA cruise example, that holds true even for the professionals in the industry.)

My only stipulation is that LEM's need to be private events. My beef with the ILDA cruise was that you had passengers who knew nothing about lasers attending the event. At least at a LEM, a guest has a PL member with them who can explain the risks. That was not the case on the ILDA cruise.

Would you let someone who is brand new to lasers run around at a LEM? Well, apparently so, as long as they have a PayPal account, know their T-Shirt size, and understand that if they get hurt it's their own problem.

At this point, you really need to cite specific examples (as I have) if you want this discussion to continue. I will not debate baseless, open-ended, hypothetical accusations like the one above. If you have a specific event that happened at a previous LEM that you want to take issue with, then speak up.

I am a safe person so I am not worried about it. But, I don't know about the next guy. He could be an idiot. And if he gets hurt, that's his problem. By saying that, I accept that I am not acting responsibly because I should also watch out for others. But, I am not the one that wants to ban diodes from certain people, either.

I'm not trying to ban diodes either. And by stating that you accept the need to watch out for others, it would appear that you now agree with everything I've posted above. So what, exactly, is the issue with LEM's?

Adam

[mixedgas]

damn dude, drama much?

Dude, I'm loosing my skills at being sarcastic.

Steve

[Stuka]

Dude, I'm loosing my skills at being sarcastic.

Steve

Nah - you've still got the gift; you just forgot to put the winking smiley on the end....

[mixedgas]

Buffo tortured 100% pure recyclable electrons and said.....

" So yes, there are unsafe acts going on, but if a new member wanted to try lighting a cigar off an argon, I'd like to think we would not let him. But by the same token, I'm not going to tell Steve that he can't walk the mirrors on a Lexel 95 without goggles, because the man has been doing it all his life and he knows the risks. And if something freaky happens and he gets a stray reflection off the mount and takes a shot in the eye, he's not going to blame me either. "


Yes, I smoked a door that had adsorbent paint and a very diffuse surface. I did have 2 pairs of goggles, if needed, And I switched to a beam trap. Then I showed the owner how to make a beam trap from folded steel. The steel came from a blank Gobo. The folded steel beam trap is right straight out of the SP 164 manual. One of the things about SELEM is not everybody sees everything, even Capt. Buffo. There is much going on. We cant run the three phase work on the stage, its dark on the stage. So the steel door forms a nice enclosure in a well lit area.
Steve

[buffo]

Don't get me wrong, Steve. I wasn't objecting to anything you did with the Lexel. My point was that things that are OK for you do are not necessarily the same things I'd be comfortable letting a newcomer do.

Adam