Originally Posted by
buffo
For a standard driver on a standard highway, I'd agree with you. For a race car driver on a closed race course, I'd say it's not reckless. (It is, in fact, what race car drivers do for a living...) LEM's are somewhere between these two extremes.
I think I see your objection. Allow me to clarify.
We do not state that SELEM (or any other LEM) is *SAFE*. That has never been the case. We say that the people in attendance generally know how to be safe, but that given the environment (unvarianced projectors, projectors with the side panels removed, multiple projectors operating simultaneously, not to mention 3 phase power wiring exposed in the electrical room), everyone needs to be aware that there are hazardous events occurring pretty much all the time, so the entire event is inherently unsafe.
Previously this was simply assumed to be common knowledge, and that was a mistake on my part. Now it will be explicitly stated beforehand. Why? Because many people (including you, apparently) came to SELEM assuming that it would be safe, and were not ready to accept that it was in fact a hazardous environment. I apologize for that misunderstanding, both to you, and to anyone else who made the same error.
Allow me to give an example. A member last year claimed a possible flash-blind injury as a result of a laser pointer incident at SELEM. (This was never posted publicly.) Later, the alleged injury appeared to heal, and nothing official was ever said or done. Nonetheless, the injury was claimed to have happened at a time when it was obvious that beams were being swept around the room. The person who claimed the injury chose to remain in the room, and then claimed he was struck in the eye.
Personally, I respect the person who reported the injury, and I believe him at his word. This was understandably a serious issue, and while it was never discussed, I did some investigation after SELEM to clarify some things about the incident. First, I went back to the auditorium after SELEM and took some measurements of the distances involved in this alleged incident. I then contacted Casey Stack and provided him with details concerning the laser power, the beam diameter and divergence, and the distance from the pointer to where the person was standing.
Casey ran the numbers, and showed that it was *extremely* unlike that this incident could have caused any detectable change in the person's retina, because of the tiny amount of energy delivered. (below class 3A limit) This confirmed my suspicion that the injury was in fact not caused by the pointer, but since the pointer flash was the only thing the person could remember that was out of the ordinary, it was naturally assumed to be the cause. (Before today, this information has never been made public, even to the people involved in the incident. I apologize for bringing this out, but I do promise to keep the names private.)
This information was held in secrecy, mostly to protect the identities of those involved. However, if it had ever gone public, or worse, if a lawsuit had resulted, I fully intended to have Casey report his findings. Fortunately, it did not come to that. But it did get me thinking about the liability of these events. Even though the laser pointer almost certainly didn't cause the injury, it was not beyond the realm of possibility that the injury could have been caused by other lasers at the event.
The point here is that there was something happening in the room that appeared to be unsafe, at least to some people. (Beams being swept around the room.) Some people chose to leave, others stayed. But no one did the calculations to "prove" that it was safe (at least not until well after the event).
So in that respect, if you don't have a good feeling for what is safe (based on experience), then the smart move is to assume it's unsafe and take appropriate action to protect yourself, right? Regardless of whether it really was safe or not, the failure here is that the person didn't feel the need to act. Why? Because they thought everything would be safe. (oops!) And that perception is what I need to change for SELEM 2010.
Here is another example. We had a 3 watt DPSS green projector in attendance at SELEM last year, and it was projecting into the balcony. Some people made the decision to stand in the path of that projector to see the beams. Personally, this was well beyond my comfort level, so I chose to stay out of it's scan path. (It was *incredibly* bright!) Later, when I ran the numbers for that projector, it was really questionable. There were certain cases where that projector could have caused significant eye injury, even way up in the balcony. But even so, some people wanted to experience that brightness for themselves.
Were they risking an eye injury? Probably, yes. Though it may well have healed in time, there was certainly the potential to cause retinal injury with that projector. And that is why it needs to be explicitly stated that these events are *NOT* billed as inherently safe. True, as a general rule the audience area on the first floor is usually safe, but you never know when someone is going to break out a pointer, or someone who is tuning a scanner will bump a mirror, etc.
And the balcony area is definitely no-mans land, since you are directly in the beam path of multiple projectors. However, as just about any SELEM attendee will tell you, the view from the balcony is absolutely breathtaking. So while it's fun to go up there, it also carries risks. I assumed that everyone up in the balcony understood those risks, and chose to remain there despite the risks. In the future, I will no longer assume this, but will explicitly state the risks in the wavier form.
True, it is. But most newcomers don't even have lasers yet, much less projectors. Also, we're more inclined to cut a little slack for someone who is experienced than for someone who is brand new.
For example, Steve Roberts burned a divot in a steel door with a 4.5 watt beam from a Lexel 95 at SELEM 2008. He did this in the hallway backstage, and no one was wearing goggles. (In fact, I think I had the only argon goggles present at that event, and they were up on stage in a box under my table.) Likewise, DZ lit a cigar off that same beam, and we have a video of it. Would I do that? No way in hell. But he managed, and fortunately he didn't injure himself doing it.
So yes, there are unsafe acts going on, but if a new member wanted to try lighting a cigar off an argon, I'd like to think we would not let him. But by the same token, I'm not going to tell Steve that he can't walk the mirrors on a Lexel 95 without goggles, because the man has been doing it all his life and he knows the risks. And if something freaky happens and he gets a stray reflection off the mount and takes a shot in the eye, he's not going to blame me either.
I agree, it is a loosely controlled environment. However, if someone shows up who is a complete newbie, and that person also happens to own a powerful laser (a perfect example would be "Johnathan" and the Lexel Colorpro that he brought to SELEM last year), then yes, we'll treat him with kid gloves and make sure he's watched closely. (You'll notice that neither Johnathan or his father went up into the balcony last year...)
But am I going to treat Steve Roberts with kid gloves? No way.
Hey Adam... Re: the laser pointer vs toy helicopter video... I am embarrassed only because it *appears* to be reckless. True, you and I (and the other attendees) know that it was controlled, but that's a hard sell to someone who is just watching the video and doesn't know the back story. That's all.
I disagree with this. We don't "jump on people" right away. We usually mention safety as part of the introduction only in cases of new members who specifically state that they are doing (or intend to to) shows for the general public. And the initial safety introduction is almost always very positive and up-beat.
But in cases where people disregard that advice (*cough* DJallen *cough*), then we jump on them. And that's simply a matter of self-preservation. Unsafe public shows threaten us all. Unsafe shows in your mom's basement? not so much.
I have never claimed otherwise. Are you saying that people are claiming this? Because I disagree with that claim.
ILDA membership doesn't give you an ILDA e-mail address. But it does give you access to the people in the industry who can help you. True, you could probably reach them without the ILDA membership, but it's easier to get in touch with them once you're part of the organization. Also, the documents on the ILDA website are quite useful, and cover a wide variety of topics (including safe audience scanning!).
Yes, this is true. But it is anathema to what a LEM is all about. Believe it or not, some people enjoy standing in front of a laser projector, in the scan path. Some call it reckless, others call it art. Personally, so long as we're talking about a relatively low-power projector (400-600 mw range) and a respectable distance away (25-30 ft), I agree that it is beautiful.
Once you get above a watt, I start to worry for my eyesight, even at twice that distance. It also becomes uncomfortably bright, at least to my eyes. But as I've posted before, on the ILDA cruise in 2008, we had people standing in front of 3 watt projectors for the Laseoff... Some were no further than 20 ft away! Different strokes for different folks....
There is no hypocrisy. Safety at a public laser show is crucial. You absolutely can not bend the rules - ever. Safety at a private LEM (or in your Mom's basement, for that matter) is something completely different. In that case, you are on your own, so it's up to you to decide what you deem appropriate.
I believe you are still hung up on the idea that SELEM (or any other LEM) should be set up just like a commercial laser show for the public. And if that's really what you want, then I encourage you to organize your own LEM and do that. But after 10 LEM's, I've learned that this is not what the vast majority of people want. (And judging by the ILDA cruise example, that holds true even for the professionals in the industry.)
My only stipulation is that LEM's need to be private events. My beef with the ILDA cruise was that you had passengers who knew nothing about lasers attending the event. At least at a LEM, a guest has a PL member with them who can explain the risks. That was not the case on the ILDA cruise.
At this point, you really need to cite specific examples (as I have) if you want this discussion to continue. I will not debate baseless, open-ended, hypothetical accusations like the one above. If you have a specific event that happened at a previous LEM that you want to take issue with, then speak up.
I'm not trying to ban diodes either. And by stating that you accept the need to watch out for others, it would appear that you now agree with everything I've posted above. So what, exactly, is the issue with LEM's?
Adam
Member
....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
buffo
