A plea for safety, pl edition.

[matt_man10]

Hi Steve,

I have to congratulate you on what can only be described as supernatural foresight and ask you if your original post Aimed at a company known as wickedlasers *spits* as they have gone and made a 1watt 445nm laser pointer available to all for pocket money prices.

QUOTE: mixedgas
please think twice before you sell blue kits at 200$ or less to some one who lacks maturity. Your shortchanging your own rights in the long run.

You even seemed to get the cheap protective eye ware bit right too.

I am seriously worried for a hobby/passion that i have only recently had the means and time to begin exploring being outlawed or having it's nuts regulated off, Maybe i am just being a little melodramatic, but it's only going to take one publicised incident to grab peoples attention and one more to seal the deal...

Matt

[norty303]

I just tend to get a bit 'riled-up' when I perceive that good people are getting bashed for trying to do nothing more than help

It's not the 'good people' and the 'helping' I'm referring to.... [cryptic winking][/cryptic winking]

[dsli_jon]

Just to be clear, I am purposely not replying to you for reasons stated above.

h, puh-leeeaze, 'Pleading the Fifth'? How 'elevated' of you... aka: your baseless claims about the PL-community being self-serving and inexperienced / hypocritical simply can't be defended and you know it. So *phtphtpht*... (how's that for 'high skool' )

Everyone here (including myself) comes here to learn and help others, where possible, by sharing what they've learned. - What positive contributions have you made to this community, thus-far? Standing-by to learn:

If you want to have a respectful and mature conversation send me a PM. I am not going to respond to name calling and emoticons. Thats for high schoolers.

Oh no, no, no - we can discuss / debate, right out here in public, where you started deriding this threads' sincere effort to educate / encourage responsible-selling as 'rediculous', first. What respect have you earned, thus-far, exactly?

Sorry, but 'throwing dirt-clods' from behind satirical-parables, accusatory (and inaccurate) sniping at PL-ers from the shadows, and then, 'pleading the fifth' - that's 'high school' - calling you the 'Great Groundhog' and smileys? Well that's just plain fun...

You and the ego have a nice night, Gary... I-I mean, John...
j


---

It's not the 'good people' and the 'helping' I'm referring to.... [cryptic winking][/cryptic winking]

hey! that's extra punctuation I see!!!
cheers, Norty...

[ElektroFreak]

Everyone here (including myself) comes here to learn and help others, where possible, by sharing what they've learned. - What positive contributions have you made to this community, thus-far? Standing-by to learn:

Oh no, no, no - we can discuss / debate, right out here in public, where you started deriding this threads' sincere effort to educate / encourage responsible-selling as 'rediculous', first. What respect have you earned, thus-far, exactly?

Sorry, but 'throwing dirt-clods' from behind satirical-parables, accusatory (and inaccurate) sniping at PL-ers from the shadows, and then, 'pleading the fifth' - that's 'high school' - calling you the 'Great Groundhog' and smileys? Well that's just plain fun...

Well, if he is actually Gary he's contributed a great inexpensive laser show creation software package called Spaghetti, which combined with the soundcard DAC, the RIYA, or several other DACs is a great way to go if you're looking for an inexpensive, high-quality interface package to start off in this hobby with. In my opinion, that's a pretty awesome contribution.. Lots of hard work, etc. What great, affordable product have you created for the hobbyist community lately? I'm "standing-by to learn"..

[DZ]

Well, if he is actually Gary he's contributed a great inexpensive laser show creation software package called Spaghetti, which combined with the soundcard DAC, the RIYA, or several other DACs is a great way to go if you're looking for an inexpensive, high-quality interface package to start off in this hobby with. In my opinion, that's a pretty awesome contribution.. Lots of hard work, etc. What great, affordable product have you created for the hobbyist community lately? I'm "standing-by to learn"..

I agree that Gary has contributed to the hobbiest community by offering the software that he does. I fully supported it when he was around. Same goes for the other folks that created free or very inexpensive software. When I started, the only options were Pangolin's QM32 and PCLite from LaserIllusions. I had no choice but to start with PCLite and love it. I would have killed for what Gary has now or what James Lehman has created. It seems to me that the problem that occured many months ago, is that there was a great deal of animosity toward Pangolin and ILDA (and SELEM, aparently). And the constant attacks of both organizations brought nothing but drama and fighting within the community. I hate to see that both Gary and James are gone from here, I feel their vision was clouded by jelousy, but the rediculous behavior just had to stop. I'm glad it did, just wish the outcome was different.

Regarding dsli_jon, he brings a wealth of experience to this forum and I've personaly benefited by the various items he's offered and supplied for the various projects I've worked on over the past few years. And I'm certain I'm not the only one, so Jon brings plenty to this community. IMHO

[ElektroFreak]

I agree that Gary has contributed to the hobbiest community by offering the software that he does. I fully supported it when he was around. Same goes for the other folks that created free or very inexpensive software. When I started, the only options were Pangolin's QM32 and PCLite from LaserIllusions. I had no choice but to start with PCLite and love it. I would have killed for what Gary has now or what James Lehman has created. It seems to me that the problem that occured many months ago, is that there was a great deal of animosity toward Pangolin and ILDA (and SELEM, aparently). And the constant attacks of both organizations brought nothing but drama and fighting within the community. I hate to see that both Gary and James are gone from here, I feel their vision was clouded by jelousy, but the rediculous behavior just had to stop. I'm glad it did, just wish the outcome was different.

Regarding dsli_jon, he brings a wealth of experience to this forum and I've personaly benefited by the various items he's offered and supplied for the various projects I've worked on over the past few years. And I'm certain I'm not the only one, so Jon brings plenty to this community. IMHO

I've personally dealt with him repeatedly bashing on me, so you'll forgive me if I don't share your views on his value to the community. He might be valued by a very small percentage of the laser community as a whole, but all past drama aside I think Gary's contributions outweigh his any day in terms of the number of people (especially new people) benefiting from them. I'm glad that you and a small group of others have had pleasant experiences with Jon, but I have only had repeated negative, pretentious and condescending experiences with him.

I don't like Jon (among others), hence the reason why I'll call him (and them) out as much as I can, regardless of how others feel about him or me. I didn't come to this forum to do anything other than help contribute by sharing my experiences with the group, but since the moment I came here I've had to deal with so much bullshit behavior from Jon and others that I'm soured on each of them permanently (which is the reason why I consistently attack certain members here, much to the chagrin of others, I am sure.. no dispute is without collateral damage), and there ain't no fixing it. Enough of that kind of crap, and a guy gets fed up, you know? Maybe even fed up to the point that he just stops caring about the collateral damage. Now I intend to do my best to make sure as few forum rules get broken as possible when I call people out, but sometimes I just get pissed.. happens to everyone once in awhile. These guys (or anyone) can ignore me, but someone, somewhere will always read my posts so it doesn't matter.

And sure, I could just leave the forum out of frustration.. but like I said in another thread: There are a few GREAT people here (yourself included DZ, even though you might not share the sentiment.. it's OK if you don't) and they are the reason I come here. These are the folks I care about, and you'll NEVER see me treat them with the tiniest amount of disrespect. THEY make it worth it to be here as a part of this community. If I screw with the others, it's just for my own S&Gs in return for them screwing with me.. What goes around comes around when you're dealing with me. There's no ignoring, or moving on. How you treat me at first is how I treat you afterwords. I never just randomly attack people.

[DZ]

Well I can certainly understand that, Electrofreak. Some personallities just don't mix well at all. Heck, I'm certain there's a few folks around here that can't stand me, I've had my flame wars with a few people here in the past and there's nothing wrong with that. Part of the problem, I suspect, as Bill Benner calls it, is the low bandwidth of dealing with people on a forum. Intentions get misconstrued, next thing you know it becomes a heated argument when, if the original conversation had been face to face the outcome would have been completely different. Kinda one of the reasons I really like the LEM's! Anyway, none of it should lead to someone leaving the forum, I personally enjoy reading your posts and hope you stick around thru the good times and bad.

[-=Jim=-]

I suspect, as Bill Benner calls it, is the low bandwidth of dealing with people on a forum. Intentions get misconstrued, next thing you know it becomes a heated argument when, if the original conversation had been face to face the outcome would have been completely different.

I completely agree with this, in fact I have exchanged several PM’s with Jon (dsli_jon) over that last few days and he spent way more time than he should have to help me out. In fact in the end saved me well over $700 with a suggestion. And BTW he didn’t know me from Adam (probably a bad name choice for an example on PL) prior to the PM exchange.

Just my 2 cents and this is and NOT directed at anybody but I always find that people are willing to help when you say Please.

[ElektroFreak]

Like I said, I'm glad that he's so cool to everyone else. Great. Good for him.

My issue with him is not rooted in his unwillingness to help me out with a problem, part or design. My issue is that he tried to make me out to be another "prodjallen" (by name) because I didn't clarify a statement I made to his liking, without ever having said squat to me prior to that.. No one here owes him any explanation or clarification for anything, not to mention that I've spent a considerable amount of time and effort here posting about safety. I consider it to be the most important topic here. No one is going to talk that kind of shit to me and about me, making me out to be some kind of retard with no regard for safety, and walk away like that's the end of it. That was just the beginning of it. Even after I DID clarify and admit my error, he still rode my ass to the point where I was so frazzled and frustrated I had to get away from here for a few days. That was MY first encounter with Jon. Like I said, I'm real glad he's such a great guy to other people. Good for him.


But enough about Jon for now (more later, no doubt).. This thread is about safety. Let's carry on to that end, shall we?

[buffo]

My issue is that he tried to make me out to be another "prodjallen" (by name) because I didn't clarify a statement I made to his liking, without ever having said squat to me prior to that.

Ok - fair enough. You felt insulted by that. I think most people can accept that.

However, how you respond to an insult like that can make the difference between a simple misunderstanding and a long-standing flame war. Because the fact that you felt insulted doesn't mean that the other guy meant it to be insulting. (Or at least, not to the degree that you interpreted it to be.)

Sometimes you have to give the other guy the benefit of the doubt, shrug it off, and come back with a kind reply that explains 1) how you interpreted the other guy's post, 2) how it made you feel, and 3) why you think the post was in error.

Most of the time, a response like that will defuse any flame war. It's really not that hard to do. And you'd be amazed at how often it works. Even if the other guy really was completely out of line, when confronted with a polite but rational explanation and/or a request for further explanation, most people will admit that they let their temper get the best of them.

Remember: many flame wars are started over a simple misunderstanding, or even a case of mistaken identity. Example: Party A says something, but Party B takes it a whole different way than it was intended. Party B fires back with a passionate reply, and now Party A feels attacked, and we're off to the races!

I've spent a considerable amount of time and effort here posting about safety. I consider it to be the most important topic here.

This is a healthy attitude, and you should be commended for it. And honestly, Jon feels the same way, and is also big on safety. So really, the two of your should be on the same side. But it seems that a small misunderstanding has created this huge rift between the two of you, despite the fact that you probably agree with each other on the majority of issues.

Because of that rift (and the vitriol it's causing), there isn't enough bandwidth left to explore the nuances between your two positions. It's just satire and insults, mixed with a lot of testosterone. Such communication polarizes the community, and it feeds on itself.

No one is going to talk that kind of shit to me and about me, making me out to be some kind of retard with no regard for safety, and walk away like that's the end of it.

It's not like this is your global character evaluation here. What someone says about you in an Internet forum isn't the final word on who you are. (Also, not everyone is saying the same thing.)

Just because someone calls you an asshole doesn't mean you are one. It might mean the other guy is having a shitty day and needed to vent, and you were the unfortunate target. It might mean that the other guy is a just horrible judge of character. It might mean that the other guy read a few of your posts (but not all of them), and is taking something you said out of context. Or maybe you really are an asshole.

But before you jump back at the other guy with guns blazing, try looking for a simpler solution. This almost always results in better discussions, and it also limits the collateral damage you were talking about.

he still rode my ass to the point where I was so frazzled and frustrated I had to get away from here for a few days.

When I get that pissed off at someone, I usually send a PM to a few other people on the forum for a reality check. If they agree that the other party is a hateful son of a bitch, then OK, I might let loose with a good flame. But most of the time, other people have at least something good to say about the guy I'm pissed at. And that's enough to make me think that there is a way to reach an accord. I look for some common ground to start from, and I try to start over.

The laser hobbyist community is small enough that we really need to work at keeping it together. And while I work hard to do that, I'm not perfect either. I've had to be told to back off plenty of times before. But the point is that we all need each other a lot more than we let on. Without the cooperation of the folks here, many of us would still be fooling around with spinning mirrors and dreaming of the day we could own a set of scanners.

And Jon, lest you feel left out of this whole thing, I think you are just as guilty of ratcheting up the rhetoric in this thread as Electrofreak is. Both of you have been feeding off one another, and you definitely know which buttons to push on the other one. So let's take a 5 minute break, huh? Accept that the two of you are closer to the same side of this issue than you'd be comfortable admitting in public, and let's continue talking about general safety.

Adam

PS: Can I get a group hug here?