A plea for safety, pl edition.

[ElektroFreak]

keep questioning their labeling criteria and you are guaranteed a product recall and they might just "fix" a few other issues while they are "fixing" that problem. I assume there is already a "fix" in the pipeline.

I firmly believe that there are folks (members) here with that goal precisely in mind.. God forbid that hobbyists should have access to an inexpensive source of blue, and god forbid that the world should not be protected from itself whether it likes/needs it or not: "Statistics be damned, every douchebag pointer jock that gets a hold of one of these is GOING to blind someone, burn someone, bring down aircraft and what have you." There are both financial and safety reasons for this. Not only do these diodes represent a slight threat to public safety (let's keep it in perspective) they represent a major potential threat to the livelihoods of people accustomed to high-powered blue being expensive. I don't have any proof of this of course.. merely suspicions. There's some highly annoyed folks out there, and my heart bleeds for them.. *not*.

[mixedgas]

Electrofreak wrote at that other forumn:

It's a tough call, no doubt. Ordinarily I'm all for free sharing of information, but this development has grown to very large proportions, and certain Chinese manufacturers are selling class 4 lasers to any and everyone dirt cheap with labels such as "weapon" and "light saber" etc. This is irresponsible and does present a real threat to the hobby.. these companies act without regard for the hobbyist. It would be best if the only way one could obtain a class 4 pointer was if they build it themselves. A teenager who spent their allowance money and is now waving a class 4 laser around is a recipe for disaster since they will likely not have any real grasp of the danger involved. I can't tell you how many times I've been at the club and I see people waving high-powered pointers around hitting people in the head, eyes, etc. It's only a matter of time before these 1W blues make it to nightclubs, concerts, etc. So many people here believe that there is no significant increase in danger from class 3b to class 4, but that's incorrect. The amount of time that it takes to do damage decreases significantly as power increases. Therein lies the danger. A quick flash from a reflection and damage is done.

On the other hand, I don't want to see this cat back in the bag. I love the idea of being able to get a lifetime supply of blue for next to nothing. The only issue is the one just discussed: the potential implications for the rest of the hobby should injuries get out of hand. The fact that these lasers will be easy to obtain cheaply, and ready built, only amplifies the risk.

END QUOTE>

Steve's thinking of applying the "H" word here.

Nough said.

Steve

[Morgan]

Electrofreak wrote at that other forumn:

It's a tough call, no doubt. Ordinarily I'm all for free sharing of information, but this development has grown to very large proportions, and certain Chinese manufacturers are selling class 4 lasers to any and everyone dirt cheap with labels such as "weapon" and "light saber" etc. This is irresponsible and does present a real threat to the hobby.. these companies act without regard for the hobbyist. It would be best if the only way one could obtain a class 4 pointer was if they build it themselves. A teenager who spent their allowance money and is now waving a class 4 laser around is a recipe for disaster since they will likely not have any real grasp of the danger involved. I can't tell you how many times I've been at the club and I see people waving high-powered pointers around hitting people in the head, eyes, etc. It's only a matter of time before these 1W blues make it to nightclubs, concerts, etc. So many people here believe that there is no significant increase in danger from class 3b to class 4, but that's incorrect. The amount of time that it takes to do damage decreases significantly as power increases. Therein lies the danger. A quick flash from a reflection and damage is done.

On the other hand, I don't want to see this cat back in the bag. I love the idea of being able to get a lifetime supply of blue for next to nothing. The only issue is the one just discussed: the potential implications for the rest of the hobby should injuries get out of hand. The fact that these lasers will be easy to obtain cheaply, and ready built, only amplifies the risk.

END QUOTE>

Steve's thinking of applying the "H" word here.

Nough said.

Steve

To be fair Steve, EF did end his particular GB for these reasons and I think that the previous post is just a cry for the responsible hobbyists that may suffer due to correcting the ease of extraction and forcing a recall or even a ban. The two posts do seem at odds with each other but they are a little out of context.Just trying to be fair is all...M

[ElektroFreak]

Electrofreak wrote at that other forumn:

It's a tough call, no doubt. Ordinarily I'm all for free sharing of information, but this development has grown to very large proportions, and certain Chinese manufacturers are selling class 4 lasers to any and everyone dirt cheap with labels such as "weapon" and "light saber" etc. This is irresponsible and does present a real threat to the hobby.. these companies act without regard for the hobbyist. It would be best if the only way one could obtain a class 4 pointer was if they build it themselves. A teenager who spent their allowance money and is now waving a class 4 laser around is a recipe for disaster since they will likely not have any real grasp of the danger involved. I can't tell you how many times I've been at the club and I see people waving high-powered pointers around hitting people in the head, eyes, etc. It's only a matter of time before these 1W blues make it to nightclubs, concerts, etc. So many people here believe that there is no significant increase in danger from class 3b to class 4, but that's incorrect. The amount of time that it takes to do damage decreases significantly as power increases. Therein lies the danger. A quick flash from a reflection and damage is done.

On the other hand, I don't want to see this cat back in the bag. I love the idea of being able to get a lifetime supply of blue for next to nothing. The only issue is the one just discussed: the potential implications for the rest of the hobby should injuries get out of hand. The fact that these lasers will be easy to obtain cheaply, and ready built, only amplifies the risk.

END QUOTE>

Steve's thinking of applying the "H" word here.

Nough said.

Steve

There are aspects of my feelings that DO conflict. That's the hardest part about this for myself and for everyone I think. There is obvious danger, especially from dangerous marketing tactics of foreign manufacturers, but at the same time as a hobbyist it's awesome to think of getting that kind of blue power for so little expense. I try to make my posts represent my feelings, even the conflict. I'm not trying to double-talk myself.. and obviously in NO way am I trying to say that the danger does not exist. I simply draw a firm line at any action by others to control my access on the grounds that my judgment is bad. The people making the call do not know enough about me to make that call. Now you might say: "EF, it's not personal, these actions will affect everyone equally!" To me, that only makes the idea of limitation and censorship even worse. That is why I take the position I have taken. Not because I want to see people's eyes burned out, and I really could give a crap about pointers. I just value the hobbyists right to build and own class 4 lasers for their own personal enjoyment and I don't want to see anything encroach on that freedom, especially actions based on speculation and actions that fail to acknowledge that irresponsible people make up but a small percentage of any population. The actions of irresponsible people are why I classify the overall threat to public safety as being "small". Not everyone will pose a danger with a 1W blue portable. Only a few stupid ones will.

My statement on LPF was intended to take both sides into account. I feel that due to safety and legal concerns class 4 blue laser diode information should be restricted to LPF members only, at least for now. I would be in favor of the same action here as well. To me, in this case this is the lightest and only acceptable form of censorship. A compromise, if you will. It's when there is a "committee" of "chosen ones" deciding who has access and who does not that I have a REAL problem.

[dsli_jon]

Hey Kats -

I presume that this product complies.

class 1 sticker is all that is required if it does not "emit" laser radiation.

Yep, if you look at the "Laser Notice 50", upon-which, the 'C-word', there, appears to have built their 'case for compliance' on - http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/De.../ucm094361.htm - specifically, Section 2, under 'Guidance', where it allows-for 'subbing' certain sections of 1040.10 (ones-relevant to-this puppy: 1040.10(d) Accessible emission limits, and 1040.10(f)(2) Safety interlocks) ...with the IEC standard...

..fair 'nuff, cause, undoubtedly, by the time it gets out of the *intended* aperture of the projektorr, it's "Class 1" - but I still contend: I just cannot-believe that they (Ca*io) SHOWED, and/or the FDA inspector who 'signed-off' on this, ever saw THIS, which we've all-seen, blah, blah, etc...

...And, if they DID, well then *we* (...the educated laserist community, pros and hobbyists, alike...) all have an even more-solid basis for some major-gripin' to-do with Mr CDRH... if they're gonna 'relax' the standards THAT much for the 'C-word' - well, doggonit, can we PLEASE get the Regs up-freakin-dated for 2010??

Heck, 'we' - imo - are more safety-conscious than even 'C-word', there... I would never send something that easily-defeatable / accessible, within-5 min or less to 24 WATTS - of an arguably-more hazardous wavelength, besides - out on the *consumer* market... Irresponsable, of them, imo...

At LEAST, if thay had spent a few measily bux extra to incorporate an 'optical-feedback' interlock, etc, so when the diode blok was removed, it also tripped an internal interlock - in SOME way make it so if some '13 year old' saw the Wanton Lasers "How We Did It" shyte , he'd at least stand 1/2 a chance of not shooting someone in the face w/in the first 10 minutes of getting one on his kitchen table...

The level of 'intelligence' required to open that thing up and get 24 W out of it, is not very much at all, so, we cannot, imo, assume that if some kid was 'smart-enough to figure out how to get the diode blok out and get it to work, he'd also likely be 'smart enough' to know how dangerous it could-be, for the un-trained / what NOT to do with it... Yeah, right... ...and it looks like we're already well on the way to developing a fresh crop of 'Darwin Award winners, Blue Lite-edition.... ...what-ever will they think-of, next...

So, at the very, very, least, imo - the 'C-word' should-have:

However there is also a required sticker that reads something to the effect. "dangerous levels of laser radiation is possible when cover is removed and interlock defeated"

Quote, from 1040.10:

"(7)Labels for defeatably interlocked protective housings. For each laser product, labels shall be provided for each defeatably interlocked (as described in paragraph (f)(2)(iv) of this section) portion of the protective housing which is designed to be displaced or removed during operation, maintenance, or service, and which upon interlock defeat could permit human access to laser or collateral radiation in excess of the limits of Class I or table VI. Such labels shall be visible on the product prior to and during interlock defeat and in close proximity to the opening created by the removal or displacement of such portion of the protective housing, and shall include the wording:

(for Class IV (v) "DANGER--Laser radiation when open and interlock defeated. AVOID EYE OR SKIN EXPOSURE TO DIRECT OR SCATTERED RADIATION." for Clas IV accessible laser radiation.

...Granted, *apparently* (anyone actually have the most currect IEC rev, and can x-check to see if this is actually compliant with the list of 'still must-haves' CDRH spec's in 'Laser Notice 50'?) ...this thing got approved, but I dunno, man... I think either someone at the 'Office of Compliance' was sleepin' the day they ran this across the desk, or, maybe 'C-word' had 'two versions' - one with 'security-torx' screws on that hatch, vs phillips, or ...??

I dunno - I know - that sounds 'conspiracy-theory', but like I said, I just can't see FDA actually being SHOWN / seeing how easy it is to get 24W of Class IV out of these things and saying, '...well o-kay, then!!'

...And yeah, I know - even-if they had had 'smarter interlocks' / more appropriate / responsible warning labels, etc - 'Wanton', there, would STILL have probably done what they did, and we'd STILL probably be seeing the 'furor / potential doom from N*****' over these things going open-market, etc - but I still stand on my 'point' - too-dangerous / irresponsible - AS-IS - for Consumers.... for 'us' - no worries....

Discuss / rip-apart....
peace..
j

[ElektroFreak]

Well said!!

15 chars

[mixedgas]

(Also,flying "Tiny" Radio Control Aircraft on public airfields requires that you are a member and licensed under an Authority such as the one I belonged to,SAMAA,South African Model Aircraft Association....Why? they offer up to 15 Million insurance incase of a serious a

eND Quote.

Around here, under a certain size and weight, or engine class for rockets, for the most part you just go out and fly. There are a few localities with restrictions, but usually 20 minutes of driving and your away from the rules. Even then, its not difficult to get permission for big launches, no satellite photos needed, just the farm land, some cities ban aircraft, but many encourage, and even work with clubs.

Steve

[m0f]

Just wanted to mention as it's potentially a safety concern. The laserwave broadband goggles don't go down as far as 445. I placed the goggles into the path of a scanned beam at about 20ft, and there didn't appear to be much attenuation. The beam visually appeared as bright exiting the goggles.

[142laser]

I agree totally with what Steve is saying regarding the dangers of 1 watt class blue diodes. Even "lasersam" sam Goldwasser was scared when forst testing one of these; he said the diode was scary even at a few hundred milliwatts. Even though we all have two eyes to start with it is good to keep it that way. Balance your projector and keep the out put as low as is plesing for the art while paying serious attention to keeping things safe. I have seen and been with flash blinded people after brief doubled Nd:YAG exposure (off someone's arm) and this is really bad. The person in this case had only very minor permanent injury but it took near 1/2 hour for vision to return. A hit in the eye with 1 watt is a blining event, period. If you can't afford the proper eyeware don't even buy the diode. Even the 405 nm pointers are very, very dangerous. I bought a few for $15 that output a nice beam at 50 mW! And they all say less than 5 mW output. That is NOT right.

Thanks Steve...now how about that Blue Ray 405 nm diode SLM grating scheme...post about that on the holo forum please. Even 50 mW of SLM blue would be great for holography. Best to all, Phil 142laser

[RedlumX]

I believe that buying goggles is an alibi good for almost nothing. I bet almost no one of the pointer people will wear them, namely if you wear them, you can't see what you admire. And partially blocking goggles that reduce the light to a harmless level, say to one or a few mW, are not cool either, then why spending $200 to have the same visual effect as a conforming laser pointer. And just popping ballons and cutting tape or matches with an invisible or weakly visible beam gets boring after 5 minutes. We as kids did this with a magnifyer glass and sunlight.

No, the very reason why one is buying the 1W pointer is precisely to fully see the beam and fool around with it. And so it is just a matter of time until soemone gets a reflected beam, say 50mW off a window, right into the eye.