Page 26 of 31 FirstFirst ... 16222324252627282930 ... LastLast
Results 251 to 260 of 310

Thread: A plea for safety, pl edition.

  1. #251
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Greenville, SC USA
    Posts
    119

    Default

    Well, the OP was over two years ago and 1W blues had just hit the scene with certain impending doom guaranteed by those who were inclined to believe that it was imminent. Some of the early posts in this thread are downright amusing, with the general premise that the members of this forum held the key to stopping the certain influx of horrific eye injuries that were certain to start flooding in, by making sure sales were only made to "responsible buyers."

    And yet, two plus years later we just haven't seen the injuries.

    It is always easy to predict doom and gloom but it is always interesting to see when those predictions don't come true...

    It just seems that people don't go buy 1W+ lasers and start pointing them in people's eyes.

  2. #252
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,435

    Default

    Argument from ignorance:

    Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

  3. #253
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Greenville, SC USA
    Posts
    119

    Default

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/he...aser.html?_r=1

    "At the American Academy of Ophthalmology, a spokeswoman said the group was unaware of any increase in eye injuries caused by lasers."

    “Right now I haven’t seen an epidemic of injuries,” Dr. Bryan said, but he added that the potential was there. “In the hands of children it’s a very scary proposition.”

    http://www.laserpointersafety.com/pe...sks/risks.html

    Injuries from momentary (accidental/unwanted) exposures: According to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), as of April 2012 the FDA has never received a report of eye injury from momentary exposures to laser pointers of Class 2 and 3R power (e.g., below 5 milliwatts).

    Injuries from Class 4 consumer lasers: There have been no reported injuries from commercially manufactured Class 4 consumer lasers (over 500 milliwatts of visible light), as of April 7 2012. This includes the Wicked Lasers Spyder III Arctic “1 watt” laser which first came out in August 2010, as well as similar high-power Class 4 lasers sold by other companies such as DinoDirect.com. There have been two reports of injuries from homemade or hobbyist kit Class 4 lasers, the results are minor injury and more severe.

    Injuries from deliberate exposures: Most proven or credible reports of laser eye injuries to the general public are self-inflicted -- often by youths who do not realize (or care about) the consequences. FDA has heard of injuries caused when a person intentionally stared into the beam for a prolonged period of time.

    Yet the sky is falling?

  4. #254
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    SoCal / San Salvador / NY
    Posts
    4,018

    Thumbs down

    Sorry, Mr Steele, but if this (..and your-other 'mocking' post..) is gonna-be a 'from here-on-out attitude' towards the people here, that try nothing more than to foster an environment of responsibility, and, at-least safety-awareness / education, then, well... we're not gonna get along, very-well..

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    ...Some of the early posts in this thread are downright amusing, with the general premise that the members of this forum held the key to stopping the certain influx of horrific eye injuries that were certain to start flooding in, by making sure sales were only made to "responsible buyers."
    Yeah - that's right! If you are, at-least 'choosy' to-whom you sell, by knowing your-buyers' qualifications to own / be-using Watt-plus diodes - rather-than just say 'Who cares?! if they don't buy from me, they'll just go to someone else'.. (Psst - that's the voice of Greed, talking, fyi..) - well, then at least you can say 'I'm one of the ones that *TRIES* to encourage-responsibility', etc..

    ...BUT, you-say...

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    And yet, two plus years later we just haven't seen the injuries.
    ..and ya know-what? You're not going-to! You know why? Rhetorical question 1: How many people go and actually get an ophthalmological-exam, after getting grazed in the eye, with an 'above established damage-thresholds-laser-pointer'? You can't SEE laser-damage if YA DON'T 'INSPECT' FOR IT. Does that mean 'it's just not happening'? Rhetorical question 2: How often do people know / 'see' they have the beginnings of cancer, before they either get told, or, it, itself, makes its' development oh-so 'painfully-obvious'? Same-point - Just because the 'injuries' aren't getting reported, does not prove that they have not occurred.

    ..I still-assert - (..and I wholly-acknowledge, this is just my opinion, etc, but, it's an opinion based on a fair-amount of read-research, and what I have been taught, as-to known / established laser-bioeffects..) - that we, collectively, will really-not know, all of what laser-injuries, the past 5 years' *explosion* of audience-scanning / hi-power pointers & multi-watt projectors - available like freaking gumballs, now, nearly zero 'proof of know-how' required - has-wreaked, on the billion-eyeballs that have-been exposed, worldwide, for a few decades, yet to-come..

    ..In fact, we (really) can-never-know, unless, each of those people - or even a fairly-respective 'cross-section' - were to all get examined... Again, as Bart correctly-observed, when it comes to eye-damage, 'absence of proof, is not proof of absence'. This, because, a) most, to much, of actual 'damage', is nearly imperceptible, save for inspection via a proper-exam, and if they don't go to the Doc, THEY WON'T KNOW, and, IT WON'T GET "REPORTED"...

    ...and b) most, to much, of that same-level of damage-effects, may not - at-least not *initially*, and, perhaps for many-years to-come (until a person ages / their eye-tissue changes / starts to break-down, on it's own, likely causing any extraneous physical-damage / aberration-effects to become more noticeable..) - even be detected by the person, because of the way our eyes 'compensate' for small aberrations / damage... But, again - THAT DOESN'T PROVE THAT THERE IS-NO DAMAGE!!

    PS - You might wanna read this PDF, especially Page 6.. http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...1&d=1328085422 - Pop-Quiz: How-many mW does it take to cause permanent tissue-damage?? (yes, severity-depending on angle of incidence / where on fovea, it hits / exposure-time, blah, blah..) ..Should-be 'food for thought', when selling 1000mW+ diodes in a 'group-buy', eh?

    ..Sure, conversely, just because someone gets grazed across the eye, into the retina with a few-hundred mW pointer at close-range, or, even 500x 'MPE', scanned, from some-show, etc doesn't prove there *IS* automatically-damage, either, just like, ie: not everyone that 'smokes *a* cigarette' automatically gets lung-cancer.. BUT WOULD YOU WANNA 'FIND-OUT', when, ie: you're 50, and your vision is far-worse than, say, your peers or siblings, that, 'lo and behold', you did sustain-damage, 'as a 20-something, at some skanky-rave', or, 'that one-time, when your idiot-buddy thought it would be 'funny' to whack ya in the eye with a pointer-beam'??

    I realize that there's many 'counter-arguments' to these assertions / lots of data from Europe, where there are (apparently) not millions of eye-borked people walking around with seeing eye-dogs,, now, etc, etc, and I am not purporting to be any-sort of 'know it all' - All I 'rally-for', is 'erring on the side of caution' / seeing the 'best-practices' / correct risk-data, TO-be found in the albeit-antiquated "Regs", and responsible-actions, based on education / accurate-knowledge, 'profits' be-damned, otherwise..

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    It is always easy to predict doom and gloom but it is always interesting to see when those predictions don't come true...
    Doom and gloom. Yeah, that's what the 'spirit' of this all-is.. just a bunch of 'fear-mongering neo-con safety-wardens', sheltering the maniacal Professional-profiteers, from the innocent hobbyists and pure-hearted DJs, wishing nothing more than to spread light and love to-all.. ... Sorry, but such 'oh, you're over-reacting' attitudes, is *exactly* what leads to us having this kind of shyte, so-prevalent, these-days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvrOTzctdjw , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxP1jkGiPzc , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t65_JJrLFZ8 , ad nauseum...

    ..It's not peoples 'right to bear lasers', that is the issue, it's the attitude of 'Meh' towards best-practices and respect for 'doing it right', and mocking of those that try and foster such an environment, that-is. It's not 'being in-control' I preach, it's being smart, so we can all keep the Gov out of our pants. Unbridled-growth of more and more ignorant-idiots running around with multi-watt pointers / "Show Co's", is *not* the best way to try and maintain that.

    ...The 'sky' already-fell, dude.. we're just trying to help people get out from under it. It would really be nice to have your support, here, for that 'fight', vs mocking it.
    j
    Last edited by dsli_jon; 09-14-2012 at 08:21. Reason: PS
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

  5. #255
    mixedgas's Avatar
    mixedgas is offline Creaky Old Award Winning Bastard Technologist
    Infinitus Excellentia Ion Laser Dominatus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    A lab with some dripping water on the floor.
    Posts
    9,890

    Default

    I love the reported injuries logical fallacy. There is absolutely no mechanism in place to require opthamologists to report laser injuries. Even if they did report, whom do they send the report to? Do you think they even know CDRH exists? NO... Do they have the time to Care? No... Who keeps the stats. Answer, no one...

    Docs do keep stats on many diseases and can a monthly report if they so choose on trends and causes of death. If you wabt to read it, its here:

    CDC - Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR)

    Of course certain diseases get reported immediately. But "Death by Laser" is not on the list.

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 09-14-2012 at 08:06.

  6. #256
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Greenville, SC USA
    Posts
    119

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post
    Sorry, Mr Steele, but if this (..and your-other 'mocking' post..) is gonna-be a 'from here-on-out attitude' towards the people here, that try nothing more than to foster an environment of responsibility, and, at-least safety-awareness / education, then, well... we're not gonna get along, very-well..
    I can live with that burden.

    Yeah - that's right! If you are, at-least 'choosy' to-whom you sell, by knowing your-buyers' qualifications to own / be-using Watt-plus diodes - rather-than just say 'Who cares?! if they don't buy from me, they'll just go to someone else'.. (Psst - that's the voice of Greed, talking, fyi..)
    You know what they say about assuming... Sorry, I don't sell lasers or diodes, or anything like that. So my position isn't one of greed, it is a position of anti-melodrama. The evidence just isn't there.

    You can buy ~50-100mW lasers on eBay and Amazon all day long. They are marketed as <5mW (which is even more dangerous since buyers might believe they are buying relatively safe lasers) but regularly tested and shown to be far higher. Yet laser eye damage is not a significant cause of eye damage nor is there a meaningful increase in eye damage from lasers.

    I know Steve would like to write that off as not being reported properly, but I don't believe for a second that responsible eye doctors wouldn't make an effort to report eye injuries caused by lasers if they were seeing them.

    And I most certainly find it amusing to see the posts that seem to imply that if PL members are careful about who they sell lasers to, then everything will be fine - as if there aren't a half-dozen or more other forums where you can buy them, plus eBay, etc... It just struck me as the usual gloom and doom, the sky is falling melodrama.

    ..I still-assert - (..and I wholly-acknowledge, this is just my opinion, etc, but, it's an opinion based on a fair-amount of read-research, and what I have been taught, as-to known / established laser-bioeffects..) - that we, collectively, will really-not know, all of what laser-injuries, the past 5 years' *explosion* of audience-scanning / hi-power pointers & multi-watt projectors - available like freaking gumballs, now, nearly zero 'proof of know-how' required - has-wreaked, on the billion-eyeballs that have-been exposed, worldwide, for a few decades, yet to-come..
    Would you like to bookmark this page for a couple of decades and we can come back and discuss then?

    I realize that there's many 'counter-arguments' to these assertions / lots of data from Europe, where there are (apparently) not millions of eye-borked people walking around with seeing eye-dogs,, now, etc, etc, and I am not purporting to be any-sort of 'know it all' - All I 'rally-for', is 'erring on the side of caution' / seeing the 'best-practices' / correct risk-data, TO-be found in the albeit-antiquated "Regs", and responsible-actions, based on education / accurate-knowledge, 'profits' be-damned, otherwise..
    Well, that is part of the problem. We just have very different belief systems. I tend to go with the best observed evidence and - if I'm reading you correctly - you seem to be inclined towards maximum safety even if observable evidence seems to suggest it might be un-necessary.

    ...The 'sky' already-fell, dude.. we're just trying to help people get out from under it. It would really be nice to have your support, here, for that 'fight', vs mocking it.
    j
    If the sky fell then it doesn't appear to have been that big of a deal. There are thousands of > 1W 445's in handheld pointers out there and probably millions of ~50-100mW greens and violets out in the wild. There are enough high wattage lasers in ignorant hands to have created massive laser eye injuries by now, but they just aren't occurring at levels high enough to be noticed.

    I suppose time will tell, but if you read the original scare post:

    "You have been warned. You can also bet I and others will be calling Casio first thing Monday Morning."

    and the predictions

    "At 700mW to 1 watt, injuries will be all too common,"

    that it was certain would happen if 1W lasers were released into the wild, it IS amusing because it just didn't happen that way and we have a few years of experience now... It was an incorrect prediction. Plain and simple.

    Even to the point that Steve was trying to stop Casio from making the diodes accessible to everyone!?! I think that was what really amazed me was that here, and LPF, he was suggesting that we call Casio and encourage them to make the blue laser diodes inaccessible to those of us involved in this hobby.

    Again, I understand that we won't agree. We have a very different set of core beliefs and there is no way either of us is going to move that far off of our basic belief system. I do not believe that,

    "Freedom is not free, it comes with great responsibility.

    means, "Freedom is not free and you have to give up freedom to have freedom" as some folks seem inclined to think.

    I also do not think that,

    "There is no legitimate non military need for a watt of collimated visible light in a hand held device.

    makes much sense in forums dedicated to the use of lasers as entertainment or as a hobby. If we go that route then it is very easy to argue that NONE of the laser pointers, or beam show/graphic show equipment has any "legitimate non military need." All of this is for entertainment, and if you aren't careful with that kind of logic, then the government can use your own arguments against you to make a case for there being no need for any of this type of in-necessary entertainment.

    Tom
    Last edited by tsteele93; 09-15-2012 at 06:09.

  7. #257
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    SoCal / San Salvador / NY
    Posts
    4,018

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    I can live with that burden.
    Excellent! Finally I can have an intelligent non-thermonuclear / impersonal debate on this topic...

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    You know what they say about assuming... Sorry, I don't sell lasers or diodes..
    Yes, sorry, I should have been clearer.. when I said "..If you are, at-least 'choosy' to-whom you sell.." I should have clarified, "you" = anyone 'group-buy-selling', etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    The evidence just isn't there.
    ..Again, that has-been *realized* for what it is, has-been reported... If you read what it takes, to actually damage eye-tissue, with laser-light, focused to a pin-spot in the back of the retina, it is more than a 'fair-extrapolation' / assertion, that there is more 'eye-damage' actually out-there, than is-realized... Did you read that PDF / other research about damage-thresholds? Remember, many eye-surgeries are done with 100-250mW, and 'exposure times', are ns-pulses...

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    You can buy ~50-100mW lasers on eBay and Amazon all day long.
    Yep, worst 'sinners' on this whole-thing.. if there had-been even any-remote chance of 'rallying against' such blind-sales / successfully effecting-change / reason, I would have 'picked up my megaphone, and been in that picket-line, too'.. but, alas, not much chance an 'ant has against a freight-train'.. That 'Chinsese-tide' is what I meant when I referred to the 'sky that fell'...

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    Yet laser eye damage is not a significant cause of eye damage nor is there a meaningful increase in eye damage from lasers.
    See above..

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    ..but I don't believe for a second that responsible eye doctors wouldn't make an effort to report eye injuries caused by lasers if they were seeing them...
    Of course, but lemme finish this for ya: "... if they were being REPORTED TO THE DOCS..." Again, damage can occur / you don't even realize, because of the way the eyes 'over-compensate' for anomalies... Dead-hit in the center? Sure, prolly gonna get someone going to the Doc to 'check it out'... But, off-side damage?? Prolly rare, if-ever, that 'pointer-junkies and raver-kids' will actually go see an opthamologist to get a retinal-scan, just 'to check'... So, you might say 'well, if they're not blind / bleeding out the eyes, what's the big-deal??' Mmmyeah, I'll take my retinas pit / scar-free, thanks very much.. it's hellacious, enough, having to look forward to getting glasses, etc, just from 'getting old'...

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    And I most certainly find it amusing to see the posts that seem to imply that if PL members are careful about who they sell lasers to, then everything will be fine - as if there aren't a half-dozen or more other forums where you can buy the, plus eBay, etc...
    Fair-enough, but, to use an example - Do you remember hearing about that 'Dad that let his 8 yrs old kid fire an Uzi, at a gun-show' in MA (?) - Kid never had any training or experience to handle / fire such a gun, and when he did, the recoil immediately spun it around in his hand, where it proceded to spit 950+ rounds per minute into his forehead, killing him in front of his own Father, remember that? Now - Should the Dad have quashed the 'rights' / 'freedom' of his Son, to fire the thing? NO! But, don't you think the Father would have been far-happier with the 'outcome', if someone had just 'spoke up', and said 'Hey! that-kid have any prior shoot-experience? You might at-least wanna hold it with him, ya??' And, more to the 'point' - Don't you think YOU would have 'felt good about it, if YOU had-been the one to have SPOKEN-UP, and been even a PART of averting that tragedy? I sure would-have..

    ..And Please - don't go to the 'yeah but guns are deadly weapons, and no laser can kill..' etc - it's an *illustrative-example* to make the point - DO WHAT YOU CAN TO HELP OTHERS BE 'SMARTER', that's all! If *everyone* did that, we could certainly curb a lot of 'avoidable' stuff, like that one incident, as an example..

    ..of course, if you had saved him, that kid would have prolly gotten struck by a car later that day, so.. ...but, at least you TRIED.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    Would you like to bookmark this page for a couple of decades and we can come back and discuss then?
    ABSOLUTELY, Tom!

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    I tend to go with the best observed evidence and - if I'm reading you correctly - you seem to be inclined towards maximum safety even if observable evidence seems to suggest it might be un-necessary.
    I am inclined to listen to those that have suffered-before me. More than-happy to listen to sound, scientific proof / evidence, and adjust my personal-mantras, accordingly. Yes, I am one of those 'in line' to see the 'MPEs', here in the US, get to more 'reasonable-levels', for audience-scanning shows, and, Yes, I am one of the 'clamorers for reformation' of the Regs. But, I am NOT one of those that say 'que sera, sera' - 'whatver happens, happens, and don't tell me what is safe or not'.. Ptthththth, you (..uh, not *you*, again, Tom.. go ahead and smoke-gasoline, and shoot your audience-up with 1,000x more power than it takes to blast a pit in the back of a retina, ie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvrOTzctdjw I'm fine over here, in sanelandia.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    There are thousands of > 1W 445's in handheld pointers out there and probably millions of ~50-100mW greens and violets out in the wild. There are enough high wattage lasers in ignorant hands to have created massive laser eye injuries by now, but they just aren't occurring at levels high enough to be noticed.
    Like you proposed, let's 'touch base' in 15-20 years.. Of course, that's also predicated-on all those 'exposees' having *gotten* a retinal-scan, so we know, for sure, if there is / isn't, etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    It was an incorrect prediction. Plain and simple.
    ...Well, Mr Steele...
    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    I suppose time will tell,


    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    Again, I understand that we won't agree. We have a very different set of core beliefs and there is no way either of us is going to move...I do not believe that, "Freedom is not free, it comes with great responsibility.
    means, "Freedom is not free and you have to give up freedom to have freedom" as some folks seem inclined to think.
    Hmm, then I suppose you never wear your seatbelt, do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
    ..and if you aren't careful with that kind of logic, then the government can use your own arguments against you to make a case for there being no need for any of this type of in-necessary entertainment.
    Totally-agreed, there! Thus, EDUCATION / self-'policing' / 'know the qualifications of your buyers', is far, far better than more Regs.. Sure wish eBay and 'Amazon' would get-that... but, no hope on any of those-fronts.. When anyone with the $$ can up and buy a 40,000mW KTP - featuring kW peaks - off eBay, and get it, zero 'age-verification', etc?? Yeah, the 'sky has fallen'..

    Nice sparring with ya, but I gotta go... my renders are done..
    ciao
    j
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

  8. #258
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    1 hr from everything in SoCal
    Posts
    2,753

    Default

    Really, is it so bad to proceed with caution, regardless of what everyone else is doing, regardless of what the so-called "stats" say? The gun is always loaded. If it can happen, it will happen. Do not hold in hand. Light fuse and get away. It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.... I live by these rules and I still have a great deal of fun in my life. I don't see why it is such a problem to be particular about whom you sell a diode to...
    If you're the smartest person in the room, then you're in the wrong room.

  9. #259
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Greenville, SC USA
    Posts
    119

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by absolom7691 View Post
    Really, is it so bad to proceed with caution, regardless of what everyone else is doing, regardless of what the so-called "stats" say? The gun is always loaded. If it can happen, it will happen. Do not hold in hand. Light fuse and get away. It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.... I live by these rules and I still have a great deal of fun in my life. I don't see why it is such a problem to be particular about whom you sell a diode to...
    My problem with THAT part of this discussion is just that it is silly. I don't MIND it, I just find it amusing since it assumes that there aren't a dozen other easy ways to get them and it seemed like Steve (and others) truly thought they would make a drop in the bucket's difference in how many got out there.

    The group buys happen regularly on other sites and as best I can tell buying an 1W 445 is just simple and inexpensive.



    Tom

  10. #260
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Greenville, SC USA
    Posts
    119

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post
    Excellent! Finally I can have an intelligent non-thermonuclear / impersonal debate on this topic...
    Ha, that is what I wrote when I was mad! If I didn't make you mad then I didn't try hard enough!


    Again, that has-been *realized* for what it is, has-been reported... If you read what it takes, to actually damage eye-tissue, with laser-light, focused to a pin-spot in the back of the retina, it is more than a 'fair-extrapolation' / assertion, that there is more 'eye-damage' actually out-there, than is-realized... Did you read that PDF / other research about damage-thresholds? Remember, many eye-surgeries are done with 100-250mW, and 'exposure times', are ns-pulses...
    Of course not! but I have read a good bit in the past. I think it is actually part of my point, the eyes do a pretty good job of protecting themselves.

    Of course, but lemme finish this for ya: "... if they were being REPORTED TO THE DOCS..." Again, damage can occur / you don't even realize, because of the way the eyes 'over-compensate' for anomalies... Dead-hit in the center? Sure, prolly gonna get someone going to the Doc to 'check it out'... But, off-side damage?? Prolly rare, if-ever, that 'pointer-junkies and raver-kids' will actually go see an opthamologist to get a retinal-scan, just 'to check'... So, you might say 'well, if they're not blind / bleeding out the eyes, what's the big-deal??' Mmmyeah, I'll take my retinas pit / scar-free, thanks very much.. it's hellacious, enough, having to look forward to getting glasses, etc, just from 'getting old'...
    Getting old isn't for the wimpy! I'm a pointer junkie with a 2+Watt 445, ~600mW 405, 500mW Greens and ridiculous 635nm reds as well. I most certainly DO ask then to check me out very closely and ask if anything I have wrong with me could be a result of my laser exposure to high power lasers.

    Hmm, then I suppose you never wear your seatbelt, do you?
    My first car came without seatbelts installed. Previous owner had removed them. I immediately put new ones in! Crazy to drive without seatbelts if you ask me! But I don't mind if others choose not to do so!

    Totally-agreed, there! Thus, EDUCATION / self-'policing' / 'know the qualifications of your buyers', is far, far better than more Regs.. Sure wish eBay and 'Amazon' would get-that... but, no hope on any of those-fronts.. When anyone with the $$ can up and buy a 40,000mW KTP - featuring kW peaks - off eBay, and get it, zero 'age-verification', etc?? Yeah, the 'sky has fallen'..
    I NEED one of those!

    Nice sparring with ya, but I gotta go... my renders are done..
    ciao
    j
    Likewise, but I do notice you didn't address my REAL bitches about Steve's post/website/general attitudes towards his version of laser safety. I think they are extreme and run counter to the viewss and attitudes of the average laser user.

    :-)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •