A plea for safety, pl edition.

[tsteele93]

I wasn't aware that you had his resume in-hand. The reason I hold Steve in such high regard is that he has touched more optical equipment than most have even seen in schoolbooks. He is also a professional and a professional adheres to to all the safety guidelines because in his line of work, you typically get only one chance.

I haven't suggested that Steve's resume is anything but exemplary. I'm just saying it doesn't necessarily mean that he has any significant first-hand knowledge of a large number of laser eye injury cases.

It is kind of like suggesting Jeff Gordon or some racer who has years of racing experience would know lots about passenger car injury statistics. He's an amazing driver with an incredible resume, but that topic would fall outside his area of expertise.

The fact that the eye injuries are not reported doesn't mean that they aren't happening.

I understand what you guys are saying here, but I don't completely agree. I'm sure there are SOME that go unreported, but I'd there we're the massive increase in injuries then it would start to show up even with some incidents unreported. In other words, I believe a few incidents could fly under the radar, but if there really were the massive increase in eye injury that Steve had predicted, it would have broken through the "unreported"

To be honest, if I hit myself in the eye with a 1W laser pointer, I wouldn't report it either because I would look like a god damn moron.

And you would be! I would most certainly be there telling the doctors that I was a moron and could they save me from my moronity. Saving your eyesight is worth looking stupid to some doctors.

He and others also never said the world was going to come to an end or that the sky was falling. He was simply stating what will probably happen as ignorant greed runs rampant.

No, I quoted exactly what he said...

At 700mW to 1 watt, injuries will be all too common...

That hasn't happened in the over two years since that was posted.

As things progress, things become more dangerous. We are also not dealing with 700mW to 1W anymore. The new 9mm 445s are hitting 3W, a 200% increase. Within the next year or two, they may be hitting 4W or 5W. This is what he is talking about.

No, the post was written over two years ago and he specifically stated that 700mW-1W would create a scenario where eye injuries would be COMMON. That hasn't happened.

Interestingly, even with 2-3Watt lasers we still aren't seeing them become common yet.

What happens when visible diodes start pushing the 10W barrier for less than $200? PBS two of those and you've now got a 20W handheld. Granted, this may be a stretch, but you see the progression here. This grows into a very serious eye hazard, fire hazard and personal injury hazard etc. etc. These diodes could reach a power level where even a refraction could cause eye damage.

I agree with that, but it isn't what I, or Steve, were talking about. I'm talking about his original alarmist post over two years ago that drastically overstated the risks and dangers of 1W lasers.

You have people making cigarette lighters out of these diodes, aiming them at planes (which IS reported and the numbers ARE growing), and you have Kryoman pointing unmodulated beams into the crowds. This is a growing problem. I just can't believe that you are so ignorant that you can't see this.

That is because you think that I'm saying something that I have never said. I've been very specific and I've stuck to the FACTS available. The FACTS are that over two years with >1W lasers in the wild and in spite of Steve's gloom and doom prediction, we haven't seen eye injuries become common.

The best argument anyone can come up with is, "well maybe they have become common but they just aren't being reported." That doesn't hold water because if they truly became COMMON the intelligent doctors who deal with this sort of thing would catch on and start looking for laser eye injuries, and if you are honest you will admit that it simply didn't happen the way Steve predicted...

Tom

[Eidetic]

... but Steve's "prediction" didn't have a time frame.

[davelaser]

just wondering..How did your call to Casio go?

[dsli_jon]

Crazy to drive without seatbelts if you ask me! But I don't mind if others choose not to do so!

..So, in other-words, you DO acknowledge that there are, indeed, specific-areas of life, that *benefit-from* 'giving-up' a tad-bit of that 'absolute-freedom', SO-AS to preserve and maintain certain other of your freedoms? (..like, the 'freedom' to keep living, vs being pile-driven into your dashboard, during a crash, etc..)

Yes, that sort of 'rationale' can be dangerous, ie: it's the sort of 'rationalization' that has given us the 'TSA' ..but, I'm speaking more-to the point of, ie: Yup, you're absolutely 'FREE' to go shoot yourself in the head with a .357, correct? But, you (hopefully..) 'restrict that freedom', for.. well, obvious-reasons...

..Same thing with the 'intentions' of those that simply called for 'RESPONSIBLE-SELLING'. Yeah, you don't 'mind if someone else chooses to take the seat-belts out of their own car' / risk serious-injusry / death - But if you, ie: set up a car-dealership, are ya gonna sell cars w/O belts? Worse, sell to -whomever- comes with cash, regardless if they have any driving-experience, or not? I'd venture to say 'no'.

..Yep - the 'Darwin-award candidates', will indeed, just 'go down the block and buy from the skank that will-sell w/O belts.. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU (read: Steve, et al..) SHOULD BE 'MOCKED' FOR TRYING TO ENCOURAGE SEAT-BELT USE, dig?

but I do notice you didn't address my REAL bitches about Steve's post/website/general attitudes towards his version of laser safety. I think they are extreme and run counter to the views and attitudes of the average [UNDER-EDUCATED] laser user.

a) Steve is plenty-capable of handling his own 'rapier' b) You forgot a very-important phrase, in your statement, above.. I 'fixed' it for you, in bold..

That's because none of that quite impressive experience has much to do at all with laser eye injuries.

Ah, please tell me, then, exactly how many hours of research and study, both Steve and I have-done, collectively, on the subject of laser eye injuries and laser-bioeffects to various tissues - not just eyes - as PART of that experience? Write answer, here: ___________ How many times, have YOU read David Sliney's fundamental-book on the subject? Can you even tell me 'which-book'? You didn't even read the little PDF I ref'd, yet, you have place to measure what our knowledge-base is on laser eye-injuries?? And, you assert we're 'over-reacting' as-if, you have any experience, to prove the contrary. Hmm.

You can build lasers, make shows, put on shows, and so much more for decades and it wouldn't necessarily give you any real experience or knowledge of laser eye injuries.

Yep, and it's a rather sad summary of the 'state of the industry', that this is all-too true. So-many 'hacks' out there, that have NO CLUE, the Dangers that they ARE subjecting their audiences-to...Aforementioned / ref'd 'Epic Lasers' being a prime-example..

In fact, if they are doing their jobs well then they should have virtually NO experience with laser eye injuries.

Yes, but you also don't need to actually shoot yourself in the head to know it will most-likely kill you.
There's this really-cool thing called RESEARCH, you should try it sometime..

..And, actually, I think a) the 'base-substance' of Steve's post, is both factual / based on vetted-research, whether his-own, or others' is-irrelevant (..see above, for 'why'..) b) I think you missed his 'point'... I'm going to BOLD some of, what I, at-least, see as 'key-points', in what he wrote...

A one watt laser pointer (Or ultra low cost laser projector, PL) for less then 200$ is a problem in the hands of those who are immature.

In other words, please think twice before you sell blue kits at 200$ or less to some one who lacks maturity. Your shortchanging your own rights in the long run.

..I also-think, c), you MISUNDERSTOOD where he was 'coming-from'... (again, Bold to call-out..)

At 700mW to 1 watt, injuries will be all too common,

..I saw THIS as being the 'crux of the concern' more-so than the 'all too common' part, which is what You seem to have fixated-on... In other words, at these elevated-power levels, the POTENTIAL FOR INJURY, increases exponentially.. THAT IS a FACT. THAT IS a 'concern', especially at even-a 'tween-affordable' $45. a Watt.

..Additional FACTS / basis for the concern:

and blue has some unique short and long term PROVEN side effects with respect to color vision. Prolonged exposure to intense blue results in diminished green vision.

This blue wavelength has some unique biochemical actions on releasing free radicals, and is strongly adsorbed by red blood cells in capillaries. It causes larger damaged areas in retinal tissue and is far more likely to be adsorbed by the tissue then 532 nm light.

Your new laser regulator will NOT be the CDRH if this gets out of hand. It will be the FAA, US Customs, Homeland Security, and your LOCAL POLICE. FAA had no problems getting a instant moratorium on outdoor laser shows some years ago, and the FAA can and will get enforcement instantly, if this gets out of hand. And it will be a FELONY and CIVIL PENALITES.

It is to the communities advantage to self regulate, restrict buyer age, make buyers sign a warning notice, and to drive the price upwards.

..That all sure sounds VERY-REASONABLE to me. He's NOT saying 'you can't have them', NOT saying 'you can't sell them' - he's saying USE YOUR 'SEAT-BELTS', PEOPLE'!!!

..and as-to you jumping all over him for saying 'I'm calling Casio on Monday' - How do you know what he was even-planning to SAY??? I, for one, think it was WAY-WRONG for Casio to have had SO-MUCH Class IV Laser-power, SO-easily accessible!!! When, ie: my 12 year-old Son - who is quite-astute with 'reverse-research', to learn stuff - can, in less than 6 phillips-head screws, and a piece of tape, over a microswitch - gain access to 24+ WATTS of 445nm - in a Consumer-product - THAT'S A PROBLEM. *Only* that 'aspect' of those PJs should-have had-those things *recalled* / fixed, right-away, imo.

..Am I saying 'we (the builders..) should not be 'allowed' to have them'? NO!! am I saying, they should-have made them *impossible* to 'harvest', w/o destroying them? NO! Should-they have had SOME-way of BETTER-DISABLING the 24 Watts from being shot out the kiester, once-opened / diode-pak removed, even 'slightly'? IMO - YES!!!! And I firmly-believe that was Steve's 'motive' for wanting to speak to Casio.. which, I don't believe ever-even happened..

...I'm talking about his original alarmist post over two years ago that drastically overstated the risks and dangers of 1W lasers.

OK, I've posted readable / verifiable DATA, as PROOF that these elevated-powers, the 'risks and dangers' are NOT 'overstated'. Would you care to post some 'proof' of your above-assertions? Cause if this is just all 'opinion', well, you're wholly-entitled to cherish your provably-wrong views.

The best argument anyone can come up with is, "well maybe they have become common but they just aren't being reported." That doesn't hold water because if they truly became COMMON the intelligent doctors who deal with this sort of thing would catch on and start looking for laser eye injuries...

..Again, incomplete-statement: "...PROVIDED-THAT THE SUBJECTS (the people) GO TO THE DOCS / GET RETINAL-SCANS!!!" The Docs can't do that stuff via their iPhones, ya know! And, again - Just because people aren't bleeding out-their eyes / going blind, DOES NOT MEAN THERE ARE-NO INJURIES OUT-THERE!! Damage can be very-subtle, and - again - our vision over-compensates, so, the 'Subject' may not even KNOW.. until he / she is 50 and wondering 'why the frack can't I see green very-well anymore???', etc, etc...

Gotta go...
j

[davelaser]

having read 12 pages of this 'fantastic' 'banter' between dsli jon and tsteele93 and mixedgas... I do now declare the winner .......dsli jon the winner! Well done jon.
And I guess you are wondering why the other 2 did'nt come close..Well your facrs are pretty spot on and very very well explained...

[davelaser]

Oh no! we can not be so ‘foolish’ to dispute Steve as he has being caring in the knowledge of Casio diodes and the risk they pose to the uninitiated..Bless

[Stuka]

My, what an interesting, never-ending thread this has turned out to be...

Please forgive my ignorance, but could you provide some information about how well the human eye protects itself from direct exposure to a unmodulated and narrow divergence class 4 laser...

DITTO! In fact, I imagine MANY of the experienced laserists on this post would be interested in hearing more about THAT one!!

....

Did you read what I wrote?
I said that his/your knowledge is based on totally different experiences and data than the information we are discussing now.

Just because you have 20+ years of experience with LASERS doesn't mean you have any firsthand knowledge of laser-related eye injuries. In fact, if you have been doing it right, hopefully you have no firsthand knowledge of laser related eye injuries.
...

Actually, yes, I have read pretty much everything you have posted, and this thread in detail.

SO, a big +1 to everything Jon posted in # 285. Like Jon, I feel quite confident that Steve's experience is both relevant and recent, and he (and possibly a few others on this forum) have probably had access to relevant research data that few of us have seen.

And, I DO, unfortunately, have very real first-hand experience with laser-related injuries, and take the discussions of the subject VERY seriously.

I'm guessing you may be too young to remember much about it, but there was the weird period in history called the "Cold War" that basically (well, sort of) ended in 1990. One of the less-publicized facts from the period is high-power lasers were VERY prevalent along the various East/West "frontiers", and our Soviet Bloc "friends" used them quite liberally in certain areas, including the region that was included in my first tour of duty. My exposure, luckily, was apparently relatively minor; unfortunately, some of my fellow aviators were NOT so lucky, and because of laser-related eye damage lost their aviation careers very early.

Some interesting laser-related findings came out of that period, to include things such as:

* Lasers really can cause quite a disruption in the cockpit of low-flying aircraft, even if no actual permanent laser-related "injury" is being experienced by the aircrew.
* Laser-related injuries aren't always "instantaneous" - as we saw even back then, quite often vision seemed "normal" after episodes of initial "flash blindness" cleared up, but in reality the damage done was degenerative, and took its toll over time. I think this could be a very big reason there are actually MANY more laser-related injuries occuring than are reported - many of those injured just don't know it yet.
* On a cool note, we learned a year or so later that laser-guided munitions really work quite well!!

But I digress -

Here's the REALLY scary thing that came out of that period that has become QUITE relevant since this thread originally started:

The hand-held lasers that are becoming so accessible to a young generation of uninformed, or as is often seen on some social media sites, careless idiots, are in some cases MORE POWERFUL than the lasers we used (and sometimes continue to use) as weapons systems. There is no doubt the the optics of the military-grade hardware were much more refined - a necessity for the long-range requirements - but that doesn't matter when a dumbass with an internet-purchased or hacked 2-watt "light saber" hits you in the face from a few yards away.

SO YEAH, Steve's, Jon's, and everyone else's concerns are still VERY relevant, and most experienced participants on this forum take that QUITE seriously.

And all kidding around and smiley-faces aside, when it comes to the Pangolin worship, drinking the koolaid,etc.,... however you decide to refer to it, that's probably not something you need to worry about from us ~
We're really not that interested in trying to "convert" anyone, just sharing lessons learned.
I'm probably not just speaking for myself here, but pretty sure that anyone that might have been interested in openly trying to help you get the most out of your investment has moved on to folks who actually seem interested in really learning how to use the software, rather than just complain about it.

[davelaser]

Very well written Stuka

[White-Light]

That's because none of that quite impressive experience has much to do at all with laser eye injuries. You can build lasers, make shows, put on shows, and so much more for decades and it wouldn't necessarily give you any real experience or knowledge of laser eye injuries.

...and that's a bad thing?

Sorry Tom but all that demonstrates is that *someone* knows how to put on a safe show.

Also most laser injuries will go unreported unless catastrohpic because:

a) The retina has no pain sensors so doesn't know when its been injured.

b) The brain does a very good job of covering up holes in the vision so they go unoticed unless checked by eg an Amsler Grid and most clubbers don't have Amsler grids as a source of light reading

Ad hominem at it's best!

Sorry I don't worship at the same altar you do when it comes to laser show software and I realize that you believe that because I am new to the software that there is NO WAY I could have discovered that a module was klunky or poorly designed, but that has nothing to do with this discussion Stuka.

Again Tom as I explained before QS was designed for Hobbyist use. The fact that its powerful enough for professional use is a credit to its design. However appreciate it was never meant to be the be all and end all of laser software. That job has been left to Beyond which coincidentally has layers etc just like Photoshop and a fully functional 3D imaging system similar to leading 3D programmes albeit simplified to make use easier and more appropriate to lasers.

What you're doing with QS is buying a Ford and expecting Ferrari performance. Whereas they might each have similarities, at the end of the day, the Ferrari does some things better which is why those can afford Ferraris and want Ferrari performance, buy Ferraris and not Fords.

[tsteele93]

...and that's a bad thing?

Sorry Tom but all that demonstrates is that *someone* knows how to put on a safe show.

No, I didn't at all suggest that was a bad thing. I'm just saying that if your are putting on shows correctly then you aren't learning a lot about laser eye injuries because you aren't inflicting them.

I'm not at all sure why you would think I was saying that was a bad thing.

Also most laser injuries will go unreported unless catastrohpic because:

a) The retina has no pain sensors so doesn't know when its been injured.

b) The brain does a very good job of covering up holes in the vision so they go unoticed unless checked by eg an Amsler Grid and most clubbers don't have Amsler grids as a source of light reading

Do you guys go to the eye doctor? Maybe because I wear contact lenses I have a different view of this, but every year I have to go in for a very thorough exam to renew my prescription. I even specifically ask about any anomalies and whether my hobby could be a cause. I'm very confident that if I had caused injury that it would have been spotted.

I'm assuming that a great number of people have regular eye exams due to contact lens or eyeglasses prescriptions. Not everyone, but surely all of us smart myopic people, right?