Page 4 of 31 FirstFirst 1234567814 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 310

Thread: A plea for safety, pl edition.

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    SoCal / San Salvador / NY
    Posts
    4,017

    Default

    Hey EF -

    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    ...and the projector isn't breaking any laws. By this logic, 12X blu-ray burners should also have non-removable diodes.. they don't.
    Well, please show me the 'Class IV' labels on this thing and/or statement of 'non-conformance' because it's 'OEM'? It puts out up-to 24 WATTS of visible laser power, yes? - no labels, no interlocks!!!... And yeah, blu-ray's should have appropriate labeling / interlocks, too, (I actually don't know - how many W can those put-out, total?) but these seem to be all-too easy to access that much power - and all-too easy to get in the hands of the 'inexperienced'...

    Should all hobbyists be 'banned' from having access to these? No. Again, imo, the 'control-efforts point' needs to be the harvester / seller. YOU (and I am not saying YOU, Pat...) ARE, for all intents and purposes, 'the CDRH', and as long as we have laws governing these things, imo, it is up-to each to uphold that - it's the *principle* behind safety... it's an attitude / belief-system, even-more than a particular set of laws (cause clearly, the 'laws' got 'circumvented' somehow, on these things... do I understand correctly that the label on these things states: "CLASS I"?? Happy to be-corrected...)

    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    This debate sort of parallels the whole crowd-scanning thing: Lot's of people are very scared and nervous about something that in reality has caused an extremely tiny number of reported incidents, even including a margin for error.
    ...that we KNOW-of... that is my 'personal concern' with all the assertions that 100x MPE is 'just fine', based on: "because, look at all the millions of ravegoers in Europe, and they're all 'fine'..." - I say: we THINK they're fine... has, in-fact, every one of them GONE to an opthomologist to get a retinal-scan? No, and how many ever will? - the 'concern', imo, is what will the LONG-TERM fx of *frequent* eye-scans with multi-watt lasers, do to your vision?

    And - subtle-aspects, like color-perception / detail-recognition, etc. How can we possibly know that, right now?... 30 yrs ago, there weren't today's ubiquitous multi-watt crowd-bathing shows, at least not nearly as often / widespread...

    I'd love to find some of the people that were at the infamous 'BOC' concerts, getting scanned with 20W of Argon off the mirror-balls, etc - and, some of those people were fairly far-away from the fx... and see how their 'eyesight' is... Would be interesting...

    I'm not saying they'd HAVE injuries - I can't say that. Especially because there is the 'wild-card' factor of heredity, whether that person smokes / other 'eye-health-influencing factors', etc. I'm simply saying, I, for one, ain't gonna risk damaging MY show-goers eyes - even-if just a *little bit* and/or the 'results' don't show for 20+ yrs... if, in 10/15 yrs from now, a LARGE sampling of Euro-rave/show goers get retinal-scans done, and there are, in fact, ZERO effects, degenerative, included, I might feel differently. But just because it's 'popular' now, doesn't mean it's a 'good-idea'.
    'Incessant cigarette smoking will kill you'.

    As usual, my 'un-solicited' - and off-topic - opinion...
    peace..
    j
    Last edited by dsli_jon; 06-06-2010 at 20:44.
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,622

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post
    Hey EF -



    Well, please show me the 'Class IV' labels on this thing and/or statement of 'non-conformance' because it's 'OEM'? It puts out up-to 24 WATTS of visible laser power, yes? - no labels, no interlocks!!!... And yeah, blu-ray's should have appropriate labeling / interlocks, too, (I actually don't know - how many W can those put-out, total?) but these seem to be all-too easy to access that much power - and all-too easy to get in the hands of the 'inexperienced'...

    Should all hobbyists be 'banned' from having access to these? No. Again, imo, the 'control-efforts point' needs to be the harvester / seller. YOU (and I am not saying YOU, Pat...) ARE, for all intents and purposes, 'the CDRH', and as long as we have laws governing these things, imo, it is up-to each to uphold that - it's the *principle* behind safety... it's an attitude / belief-system, even-more than a particular set of laws (cause clearly, the 'laws' got 'circumvented' somehow, on these things... do I understand correctly that the label on these things states: "CLASS I"?? Happy to be-corrected...)


    The way I understand the law in the US, it boils down to interlocks which prevent direct access to the lasers while in operation, and the power density of the light output from any aperture on the device. Sort of the same thing as the fat beam fixtures from Chauvet.. Due to a very large "beam diameter" and high divergence, coupled with the fact that the light is being reflected from a DLP chip, the output of the projector shouldn't have a power density high enough to cause damage, leading to a class 1 status. I'm not an expert by any means, but that's how I understand things to be.

    Apparently the interlock that prevents access to the lasers is easily defeated on these projectors..

    Right now 12X blu-rays have surpassed 600mW to my knowledge. Burner drives don't get class 3b or class 4 because you're not supposed to be able to access the beam while the device is in operation.

    This talk of trying to prevent people from harvesting diodes sets a dangerous precedent aside from being ridiculous and if we could no longer harvest it would ruin a lot of creativity and some very good sources of diodes.. The laser hobby thrives on harvested diodes.
    Last edited by ElektroFreak; 06-06-2010 at 21:22.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Miami, FL
    Posts
    3,580

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    Apparently the interlock that prevents access to the lasers is easily defeated on these projectors..
    isnt the interlock of basically every projector easily defeated? most of them are just switches to detect the removal of a panel or something... a little black tape, bam, defeated interlock

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,622

    Default

    Pretty much, yeah. I'm sure they meet whatever requirements are necessary for sale in the US. The people at Casio aren't idiots.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    SoCal / San Salvador / NY
    Posts
    4,017

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    The way I understand the law in the US, it boils down to interlocks which prevent direct access to the lasers while in operation, and the power density of the light output from any aperture on the device.
    Well, all I can tell ya, is, this:

    (pic deleted by LSA)

    ... would make the CDRH s#!t a brick and likely, take immediate action against this as a product... I'm certainly not gonna 'turn it in', but it makes my point - this thing, I don't believe, got 'looked-at' closely-enough, before approval, for sale, as-is... 24 WATTS, man!!! That is dangerous power!... you could easily light a curtain, etc on fire, from well-across a room with that, if these were all focused-down... this thing should *not* be so easy to get such power out-of, imo...

    Even if it were just a *bit harder* to get these out - fine - for PL-ers / those-experienced, there's many, many highly-skilled and adept engineers and technical people, here - I'm not worried so much about 'this family' - it's the *AlHEMlans* out-there, that will do anything to get what they want, at any-cost/risk...

    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    This talk of trying to prevent people from harvesting diodes sets a dangerous precedent aside from being ridiculous...The laser hobby thrives on harvested diodes.
    ...and the laser light show industry thrives on being able to put-on shows, period. You do understand why those that feed their families with this 'paid-hobby' might have cause for concern over Class IV blue handhelds having the potential to 'go viral' at such 'accessible' prices, right?

    I mean, even the 500mW - 1W Greens were very-highly priced - most of the ones I ever saw advertised were well-north of $1K... Blue is 'sexier' and highly-'temptacious', as has-been amply demonstrated here and on 'LPF' since this broke, and what is it $30. a diode + shipping? and what - how much are pointer kits (driver/lens/housing, etc) selling for over on 'LPF'?, $950.?? Obviously not....

    Clearly, there is reason for 'concern' - I'm NOT advocating a 'ban', simply CONTROL. And since CDRH didn't do it with Casio, and they're probably not gonna do anything about these 'harvests' showing-up online, that leaves the seller being the one to 'do somthing' - make sure your buyer is 'qualified' / responsible.

    I personally, would not sell these to anyone that did not have at LEAST 1 year of practical (hands-on / building / working-with) experience and some knowledge (ie: they could TELL me, off the cuff, a good book / online resource on laser safety...) of safety principles... I don't think that is being 'rediculous', do you?

    peace...
    j

    Ps -
    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    The people at Casio aren't idiots.
    No, they're not, but we've certainly seen that large Corporations don't ALWAYS *care* about safety over profit... need I say it? (BP)
    j
    Last edited by dsli_jon; 06-08-2010 at 22:19. Reason: i n - c o m i i i i...
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,622

    Default

    I get what you're saying Jon, but to me it's as simple as the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. Many professional laserists make their own lasers with harvested diodes, and there's a WHOLE lot more people here in this game now than the select few that your are referring to. Lasers are cheaper than ever and will only continue to drop in price. Times are changing.. it'll be interesting to see where this all goes.

    And again I say, if the CDRH is not equipped to do it's own policing, then they need to appeal to congress for more money to do what they feel needs to be done, if anything. I just don't feel that it's up to people who do not work for the CDRH to try to make these kinds of limited-access rules. If they need to be made, the CDRH will make them and enforce them, but I don't think any laws are being broken here, at least not yet. It's not against the law to build and use a portable laser of any power in the privacy of your own home, and it's not against the law to build and use high-powered laser projectors in your own home. My money says that Casio is on it's game and has cleared this device with the federal government.. The bottom line is it's not up to dsli_jon to enforce the law. It's up to the CDRH. No one here really owes anyone else any explanations for anything they do. Sometimes explanations are asked for, but no one forces a reply. If it came down to the elite "laserists" having a desire to limit hobbyist access because it threatens their livelihood and the rest of us hobbyists having a desire to continue being hobbyists, it would make for some interesting discussion, no?

    Jon, I'm not denying the potential danger, in fact I was talking about it before any of these threads appeared. But there is no good solution other than law enforcement and, as you say, for sellers to do what they think is right.
    Last edited by ElektroFreak; 06-06-2010 at 22:23.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    964

    Default

    IMHO the best answer here is awareness and EDUCATION.

    EDUCATE the unaware so terrible accidents will not happen.

    In the old days you needed a lot of persistence to get a lot of laser power and education happened on the way there.

    Now all you need is an ebay account, a soldering iron and bit of cash you earned delivering newspapers.
    Education needs to be put in place by other means.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    SoCal / San Salvador / NY
    Posts
    4,017

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoof View Post
    IMHO the best answer here is awareness and EDUCATION
    Excellent comment. I would only add, that - imho - 'know' your buyer's qualifications...YOU (you = any harvest-seller) 'be the law'...

    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    I get what you're saying Jon, but to me it's as simple as the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few...Many professional laserists make their own lasers with harvested diodes, and there's a WHOLE lot more people here in this game now than the select few that your are referring to.
    Again, Sir EF, I think you need my to read my replies a bit more-carefully - I do not advocate NOT harvesting these - yes, I am surprized the CDRH would allow something so powerful and something so easily-defeatable and - dangerous when disassembled (see pic above...) to get to market, as-is, BUT, of course, I am also thrilled about the chance to have that much blue available for less than $20K....but as was so-eloquently pointed out in another thread, if people are not at least SOMEwhat 'careful' on who they sell-to, "this could end up being more of a 'game changer' than we bargained-for" Well-spoke!

    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    The bottom line is it's not up to dsli_jon to enforce the law. It's up to the CDRH.
    I advocate it being 'up-to' each and every one of us / LPF-ers - and, yes, You. Safety is a community-responsability. If everyone practiced safety we would not NEED 'enforcement' - everyone, once-educated, would 'self-police', and we would not have people shooting copters and blinding ravers... those are not 'accidents', they're 'ignorants'...

    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    If it came down to the elite "laserists" having a desire to limit hobbyist access because it threatens their livelihood and the rest of us hobbyists having a desire to continue being hobbyists, it would make for some interesting discussion, no?
    we're not gonna start with that 'elite laserists' shyte again, are we? Lemme state for the record: Professionals are not 'threatened' by hobbyists - we're delighted to see PL become what is has! What I said-was, "You do understand why those that feed their families with this 'paid-hobby' might have cause for concern over Class IV blue handhelds having the potential to 'go viral' at such 'accessible' prices, right?"

    It's NOT PL-ers using these in thier garages, etc that are the concern, it's those NOT here, etc. I'll re-state, again: as was so-eloquently pointed out in another thread, if people are not at least SOMEwhat 'careful' on who they sell-to, "this could end up being more of a 'game changer' than we bargained-for".

    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    But there is no good solution other than law enforcement and, as you say, for sellers to do what they think is right.
    Sorry, lemme correct your misquote of my words - My 'opinion' was: Sellers should do what IS right, not: 'what THEY think is right'. Who defines 'what is right'? In this case, the 'Facts' do. What do I mean?

    Fact: these lasers are Class IV and are capable of setting fires / burning skin and retinas, causing blindness. If anybody sells a Class IV laser - that is capable of blinding, at the very-least, the buyer - to someone they do not KNOW / verify to be 'qualified' (having SOME understanding of the dangers / practical-experience before buying...) IMO, that is being irresponsible and not 'right'. If one buyer *feels ok* selling to whomever / wherever, ignoring these risks, I cannot, and do-not, endorse that.

    Please re-read my other post, and let's not get into another 'match', ok?

    peace...
    j
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    5,700

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post
    Hey EF -


    ...that we KNOW-of... that is my 'personal concern' with all the assertions that 100x MPE is 'just fine', based on: "because, look at all the millions of ravegoers in Europe, and they're all 'fine'..." - I say: we THINK they're fine... has, in-fact, every one of them GONE to an opthomologist to get a retinal-scan? No, and how many ever will? - the 'concern', imo, is what will the LONG-TERM fx of *frequent* eye-scans with multi-watt lasers, do to your vision?

    And - subtle-aspects, like color-perception / detail-recognition, etc. How can we possibly know that, right now?... 30 yrs ago, there weren't today's ubiquitous multi-watt crowd-bathing shows, at least not nearly as often / widespread...
    I think this is soemwhat of a side topic Jon, but evidence does suggest that these shows @ 100xMPE are safe.

    Retinal photography is now a standard part of the eye test in the UK and a retinal inspection always has been. Colour vision checks are standard also.

    I have been exposed regularly (once a month) to a show that McCarrot on here calculated (based on assumptions so roughly) to be approx 542x MPE and I think that was based on 1 Watt. There are rumours the laser is actually putting out nearer 1.5 watts.

    This shows the close proximity of the audience, maybe 10 feet (although I stick to the balcony at the back at maybe 30 feet distance)?


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Small & Cropped.jpg 
Views:	30 
Size:	181.8 KB 
ID:	17537 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	small & cropped 2.jpg 
Views:	29 
Size:	156.7 KB 
ID:	17538

    My last eye test (last month in fact), a few days after this, was clear as were my retinal scans. I always inform the optician that I'm exposed to lasers and ask them to check my retinas extra carefully because of this.

    Now, I'm not in any way justifying the power levels the organisers are running for this which are clearly way over even the 100xMPE standard, (I have no connection with the show), but it does show that solid state lasers at least have a wide margin of error built in.
    Last edited by White-Light; 06-07-2010 at 01:47.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    2,054

    Default

    I am in a woodworking group and it's always a big topic when a new tool comes out. Everyone wants to make new rules about who should be able to buy it. We have narrowed it down into three categories.

    (1) Tools less than $50 or with no moving parts can be bought or used by anyone.
    (2) Tools with moving parts but > $50 require a membership in the Jr Woodworkers club.
    (3) Tools that cost over $500 require the member to fax their ID to the club and then have a quiz on the telephone.

    These rules work very well within our group but we are having trouble getting Home Depot and Lowes to follow our rules. We have tried to get manufactures to build cases/covers/interlocks for the tools that require a swipe of an official Woodworkers of America card to unlock but they have not been helpful. But, I know eventually we will get everyone who wants to use woodworking tools to join our club and be safe so we keep fighting the fight. I hope the day comes where no one will just be able to go out and buy a table saw without first being a certified woodworker. A lot of accidents will be prevented once that happens.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •