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Thread: A plea for safety, pl edition.

  1. #41
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    Interesting! Could you give an example of tools in each category. I understand the < $50 criteria because the tool in reach of the crowd, but I do not understand the > $500 criterion.
    Could you elaborate on that?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    I am in a woodworking group and it's always a big topic when a new tool comes out. Everyone wants to make new rules about who should be able to buy it. We have narrowed it down into three categories.

    (1) Tools less than $50 or with no moving parts can be bought or used by anyone.
    (2) Tools with moving parts but > $50 require a membership in the Jr Woodworkers club.
    (3) Tools that cost over $500 require the member to fax their ID to the club and then have a quiz on the telephone.

    These rules work very well within our group but we are having trouble getting Home Depot and Lowes to follow our rules. We have tried to get manufactures to build cases/covers/interlocks for the tools that require a swipe of an official Woodworkers of America card to unlock but they have not been helpful. But, I know eventually we will get everyone who wants to use woodworking tools to join our club and be safe so we keep fighting the fight. I hope the day comes where no one will just be able to go out and buy a table saw without first being a certified woodworker. A lot of accidents will be prevented once that happens.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoof View Post
    Interesting! Could you give an example of tools in each category. I understand the < $50 criteria because the tool in reach of the crowd, but I do not understand the > $500 criterion.
    Could you elaborate on that?
    I believe the gentleman might be on a genius windup...

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoof View Post
    Interesting! Could you give an example of tools in each category.
    ...Umm, buddy, I think this might be a case-of 'lost in translation':

    satire
    A literary technique of writing or art which principally ridicules its subject often as an intended means of provoking or preventing change. Humour is often used to aid this.

    (...and/or being a first-class smart-@$$... ie: "I hope the day comes where no one will just be able to go out and buy a table saw without first being a certified woodworker. A lot of accidents will be prevented once that happens." - obviously, the day will never-come when 'accidents with table-saws will be prevented', neither will the day come when there will not be idiots with pointers at concerts and/or flightpaths, not to mention (lest some think they are being 'singled-out') illegal / unsafe shows...)

    ...seewhatimean?

    Ahem, so, Welcome to PL, Mr. Python!... ...So, you propose, (like some of our other 'darwinist' members), to simply 'let the beams fall where they may', and que sera, sera? You don't think it is a 'noble endeavour' / CYA, at a minimum, to at least encourage 'verification' of a buyers 'qualifications' / experience-base for 24 Watts of visible laser light? Ok, even, 1W?

    Since I cannot seem to bloody get off this Mac, I eagerly await your wry and witty answer.
    j

    EDIT - If I am completely, totally and utterly wrong, and indeed, you are sincerely endeavouring to end all table-saw accidents, I humbly and profusely apologize, and thus eagerly await your idea(s). ...Oh, and we're having a small earthquake right now, isn't that nice, TTFN...
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

  4. #44
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    Um, Jon, FYI interlocks are a case by case basis at class I.

    Class one means little or no user access to radiation by construction and design method.
    That method can be simply a "bulletproof" enclosure for lack of a better term, and things like nonstandard screws, locktite etc.

    The Casio does have a interlock switch, and DVD players are supposed to be built tough enough that you cannot get access to the radiation, if a DVD player has a interlock, its going to be "DVD SLIDE OPEN" sensor switch, and not on the lid.

    You can in theory have a class I CNC with a 1 Kw Co2 in it.

    If we did not have class I there would be no CD players.

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post
    Excellent comment. I would only add, that - imho - 'know' your buyer's qualifications...YOU (you = any harvest-seller) 'be the law'...



    Again, Sir EF, I think you need my to read my replies a bit more-carefully - I do not advocate NOT harvesting these - yes, I am surprized the CDRH would allow something so powerful and something so easily-defeatable and - dangerous when disassembled (see pic above...) to get to market, as-is, BUT, of course, I am also thrilled about the chance to have that much blue available for less than $20K....but as was so-eloquently pointed out in another thread, if people are not at least SOMEwhat 'careful' on who they sell-to, "this could end up being more of a 'game changer' than we bargained-for" Well-spoke!



    I advocate it being 'up-to' each and every one of us / LPF-ers - and, yes, You. Safety is a community-responsability. If everyone practiced safety we would not NEED 'enforcement' - everyone, once-educated, would 'self-police', and we would not have people shooting copters and blinding ravers... those are not 'accidents', they're 'ignorants'...



    we're not gonna start with that 'elite laserists' shyte again, are we? Lemme state for the record: Professionals are not 'threatened' by hobbyists - we're delighted to see PL become what is has! What I said-was, "You do understand why those that feed their families with this 'paid-hobby' might have cause for concern over Class IV blue handhelds having the potential to 'go viral' at such 'accessible' prices, right?"

    It's NOT PL-ers using these in thier garages, etc that are the concern, it's those NOT here, etc. I'll re-state, again: as was so-eloquently pointed out in another thread, if people are not at least SOMEwhat 'careful' on who they sell-to, "this could end up being more of a 'game changer' than we bargained-for".



    Sorry, lemme correct your misquote of my words - My 'opinion' was: Sellers should do what IS right, not: 'what THEY think is right'. Who defines 'what is right'? In this case, the 'Facts' do. What do I mean?

    Fact: these lasers are Class IV and are capable of setting fires / burning skin and retinas, causing blindness. If anybody sells a Class IV laser - that is capable of blinding, at the very-least, the buyer - to someone they do not KNOW / verify to be 'qualified' (having SOME understanding of the dangers / practical-experience before buying...) IMO, that is being irresponsible and not 'right'. If one buyer *feels ok* selling to whomever / wherever, ignoring these risks, I cannot, and do-not, endorse that.

    Please re-read my other post, and let's not get into another 'match', ok?

    peace...
    j
    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on many of your points. You were the one who brought up the threat to your livelihood, not me. I'm also not interested in going rounds with you, but as someone who gave me such a hard time about clarification perhaps you should listen to yourself. And you should know better than to expect me to not challenge your position if I have issues with it. You can bet after our last encounters I'll be there reliably to do just that every time.

    My whole reason for posting the original post which got your attention was to point out that there is no good solution to this issue other than local law enforcement and sellers policing themselves. You and I are not the laser police, and I do disagree with your feelings that its up to each of us to act to limit access to harvested diodes, to act to protect people from themselves. It's not up to me and it's not up to you. I would ask anyone (other than the sellers/group buy coordinators who are entitled to do as they wish with their inventory) who would possibly act to limit access to harvested diodes to refrain from hurting our hobby by selfishly assuming your feelings are the only ones that are valid. Unless we are all breaking the law by harvesting and using these diodes, then it's not up to anyone to decide for the whole group.
    Last edited by ElektroFreak; 06-07-2010 at 07:18.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixedgas View Post
    Um, Jon, FYI interlocks are a case by case basis at class I.

    Class one means little or no user access to radiation by construction and design method.
    yeah, I understand that, I guess I am just having a hard time 'reconciling' a Class I sticker (and, sure, at the 'aperture', maybe.. has anyone actually done any density measurements with this thing putting-out blue-only, 'as' a projector? Just curious...) with this:

    (pic deleted by LSA)

    ...(access to up-to 24 Watts, +/–), seeming to be about as easy to do as pop open a can of Pringles... I know where you 'stand' on this, and I stand with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on any of your points. ...there is no good solution to this issue other than local law enforcement and sellers policing themselves....and I do disagree with your feelings that its up to each of us to act to limit access to harvested diodes, to act to protect people from themselves.
    I'm sorry, you've confused me - isn't "sellers policing themselves" exactly what I have said way too many times? Please READ my comments, before you 'disagree' with them - I proposed people CHECK WHO they're selling-to / the buyers' qualifications, and NOT sell to just-anyone... , with 'verification', is all I'm promoting...

    And to your 'witty-point', Sire Yayas, are sales / harvests gonna happen, whether someone does or doesn't, of course.. but in my mind, it's akin to being conscientous to not sell booze to underagers... one can at least avoid being the one that sold the 6-pack to the inexperienced teen that then goes out and wraps himself and/or some other kid(s) around a tree...

    But, whatever... I've rediculously overstated my opinion on this...it's an ant trying to reason-with a freight train...

    peace out...
    j

    @ Sir WL

    Quote Originally Posted by White-Light View Post
    I think this is somewhat of a side topic Jon, but evidence does suggest that these shows @ 100xMPE are safe.
    ...and I like 'evidence' what I 'chafe' against is the assertions out-there that 100x MPE is 'just fine', based-on: "because, look at all the millions of ravegoers in Europe, and they're all 'fine'..." Numbers and retinal scan-documentation - and that data, over time / many-cases, not just 'one, small x-section' - is very good...

    ...Really, THAT'S the stuff we-need to relax the - YES - rediculously-low MPE-limits on shows, over-here... even 10x MPE would be an 'improvement' for us, but, "because, look at all the millions of ravegoers in Europe, and they're all 'fine'..." will just never make headway with the CDRH... remember, it's a dinosaur. A dino that 'gets' numbers / data / studies, real-well, but not much else...

    ...and thus the 'tie-in' to my 'concerns' with unregulated sales of these things... all we need is for ONE nationally-televised 'blue-pointer' incident, and we're set-back X-amount with making progress on getting the CDRH to take us seriously (cause, they think we're 'ALL the same' - laser shows have ALWAYS been the 'red-headed step child' - remember, the 'Regs' more or less got written, because some dope was shooting 20 Watt argon beams into crowds, over here...

    Anyhoo, cheers, and thanks for that little bit of info... we'll be keen to hear more 'hard data' on 100x MPE injury-avoidance, from over yonder...

    cheers...
    j
    Last edited by dsli_jon; 06-08-2010 at 22:21.
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post


    I'm sorry, you've confused me - isn't "sellers policing themselves" exactly what I have said way too many times?

    Yep, and isn't "I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you" something I've said at least twice so far? You're hearing disagreements where there are none. I just explained in detail the facets of your argument that I don't agree with, and sellers policing themselves isn't one of them. Perhaps we both need to read things better.

    Also, I don't think it's right to hold the world up to US standards, especially considering that US standards are severely outdated.

    Please READ my comments, before you 'disagree' with them - I proposed people CHECK WHO they're selling-to / the buyers' qualifications, and NOT sell to just-anyone... , with 'verification', is all I'm promoting...

    And what is this "verification" and who is to perform it? How do we know whether the person seeking a diode is qualified? Do we parade them each before his royal highness dlsi_jon so that he may point out those who are worthy and banish those who aren't?

    And to your 'witty-point', Sire Yayas, are sales / harvests gonna happen, whether someone does or doesn't, of course.. but in my mind, it's akin to being conscientous to not sell booze to underagers... one can at least avoid being the one that sold the 6-pack to the inexperienced teen that then goes out and wraps himself and/or some other kid(s) around a tree...

    But, whatever... I've rediculously overstated my opinion on this...it's an ant trying to reason-with a freight train...

    You know, you really need to stop trying to twist my words around to make me out as someone unsafe or irresponsible, as you have attempted in the past. Clearly you take issue with me on a personal level, which makes me no matter, but you already tried to make me out to be something I'm not here before, and I'll not sit by and let it happen again. I can always be counted on to defend myself. You may be one of the "elites", but that means squat to me. I've clearly stated exactly where I stand AND I've stated that I don't have disagreements with half the stuff you say I do. Don't lecture people on "clarifying their argument" if it's something you can't do yourself. Now, we can either go rounds forever or you can leave me be. I'm fine with either. Your choice.
    Last edited by ElektroFreak; 06-07-2010 at 07:27.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post

    That... is just beautiful... Kinda like standing next to an erupting volcano. "Looks" like it might be safe to stand... here... but not there.

    Was that as easy to do as I think it was? Just hold down that spring loaded lever thing?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by allthatwhichis View Post
    That... is just beautiful... Kinda like standing next to an erupting volcano. "Looks" like it might be safe to stand... here... but not there.

    Was that as easy to do as I think it was? Just hold down that spring loaded lever thing?
    Oh yeah, yep and yes to all questions.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post
    @ Sir WL


    ...and I like 'evidence' what I 'chafe' against is the assertions out-there that 100x MPE is 'just fine', based-on: "because, look at all the millions of ravegoers in Europe, and they're all 'fine'..." Numbers and retinal scan-documentation - and that data, over time / many-cases, not just 'one, small x-section' - is very good...
    Again I don't want to divert the topic, but I think you'll find that ILDA looked at statistic from over 20 years worth of European exposure before deciding to up the maximum level to 10x MPE.

    On the general subject of 445nm diodes. I think there are really two camps of objectors here, those with genuine safety concerns and those who see cheaply available diodes or projectors as a threat to their display / sales businesses. To my mind the words adapt and survive seem to apply to the latter. Laser shows are far more than a projector in auto and a good Live Pro or per-programmed show will always beat an auto show hand down so I don't see any real threat to those who do professional shows. As for those who sell components, the answer is simple, harvest some yorself and sell them on or build them into your own modules and sell those on for profit.
    Last edited by White-Light; 06-07-2010 at 11:34. Reason: Put 100x instead of 10X

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