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Thread: Another Laser Pointer Idiot

  1. #51
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    mixedgas is offline Creaky Old Award Winning Bastard Technologist
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    QUOTE:

    My point being just like the night lights on boat which are the same as the nav lights on all aircraft (which by federal FAA law all aircraft must absulutly must have thar nav lights on at night! Exception is some military air monuvers and only for that piticular manuver with prior aproval) USE these nav light to determine how far, what direction, comming or going in relation to the aircraft the pilot is flying.
    END QUOTE:

    Go read your FAR/AIM, lighting is at pilots discretion based on weather. If your PIC and you feel your lights are interfering with your flight, you can chop em.

    Example: strobes in clouds while IFR.

    I've had pilots pull that one on me when acting as a aircraft spotter. Chop the lights, fly down the beam path, turn the lights back on, over the laser site.

    Steve
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by flecom View Post
    yes but if 100 balloons get sucked into your engine your going to have bigger issues
    Hmm, I'm thinking that for 100 balloons to present an actual hazard of being sucked into an engine, it would have to be 100 balloons moving together as a group, possibly tethered together. Barring such a mass actually making it up to the jet stream, that many balloons would present a very slow-moving target, and would very likely be tracked both visually and by ATC radar. More than likely, ample warning is going to available to all air traffic long before the balloons would present an actual hazard to flight.

    Idiot-controlled lasers or spotlights, on the other hand, are both instantaneous and unpredictable, with little or no warning of the impending hazard...
    Last edited by Stuka; 09-26-2010 at 19:11.
    RR

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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by beamann View Post
    Here in AZ we had a DPS helicopter pilot flash blinded and was medicaly check out by a flight surgen and was determinde to have permanet damage to his eye as a result of a kid in Scottsdale AZ.
    All I can say is he must have been very close!!

    I totally support pilots in that shining lasers at planes is very dangerous because of the distraction and dazzling element and I hate such incidents as they are bad for everyone connected with lasers.

    However, the injuries often claimed by pilots often simply don't add up a lot of the time to me. Steve above posted the figures. For 1 watt the NOHD was around 3,000 feet. Considering thats laterally as well as vertically, you'd have to be very low in close proximity to an airport to fall within that zone. Outside of that the laser should be eye safe if distracting.

    However, even within that distance it doesn't mean that you're going to suffer damage as that distance is almost certainly based on MPE. We already have 10x MPE considered safe (with precautions) and clubs in Europe have been running 1,000's of times MPE illegally for years without injuries.

    Whereas I don't condone that useage of uncontrolled power, the amazing thing is, there have been no injuries. Its dark yet no-one is flash blinded or staggering around unable to see.

    When you put that in the context of some claims, they seem all more unstainable some of the time.

    A dark club is not more different in brightness I imagine to a dark cockpit. Yet in one environment some people say they suffer flash blindness from a few hundred milliwatt handheld from thousands of feet and in the other enviornment, people are stood just a few feet from a 1 1/2 watt laser and yet suffer no eye damage and no flash blindness. I've no doubt some pilots claims are real. Others I'm more sceptical of though and wonder if there's a bit of a placebo effect.

    This always reminds of an incident in the early nineties near me where a bus driver had a laser of a few mw, I believe 5mw, shone at him in broad daylight from hundreds of metres. I believe the guy had 2 weeks off work with sore eyes and loss of vision and yet anyone doing the maths, especially in daylight can see that 5mw from hundreds of metres away is well below MPE and not eye hazardous although obviously hazardous from a dazzling point of view.
    Last edited by White-Light; 05-31-2013 at 22:51.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixedgas View Post
    QUOTE:

    ...
    Go read your FAR/AIM, lighting is at pilots discretion based on weather. If your PIC and you feel your lights are interfering with your flight, you can chop em.

    Example: strobes in clouds while IFR.

    ...
    Steve
    Yep!

    Which means -

    The same meteorological conditions that might encourage someone to make "less than intelligent" decisions about pointing a high-power laser into the air so you can see the beam (clouds, haze, fog) are the same conditions that might lead a pilot to NOT have the nav lights on.

    99% of the time, an aircraft in the pattern for landing at an airport is going to have their lights on regardless of weather conditions, so the chances of accidently lasing an unlit "stealth" aircraft are actually much more likely well away from an airport.

    ************************************************** ************************************************** *

    CONCERNING FLASH BLINDNESS

    For those that seem to want to mitigate the whole flash-blindness thing as not being that serious, I would tell you - based on experience - that unless you have been in the cockpit at night and been on the receiving end, you REALLY don't know what the hell you're talking about!
    It doesn't take permanent eye damage to cause instant problems in the cockpit, and trust me when I say that depending on the flight path, mode of flight, activity in the cockpit, etc., a few seconds of disorientation can be a VERY serious concern, with the potential to degrade into a very dangerous situation!!

    Good (safe) visual night adaptation can be very difficult for some pilots to achieve, and can easily be disrupted for several minutes by very brief uncontrolled / unexpected interior or exterior light sources - and for some pilots, the intensity of that light source does not have to be all that great. Add night vision goggles to the mix - which, BTW, are being used more and more by EMS helicopter operations - and with a strong enough laser or spotlight source, you take the chance of not only causing flash blindness for the pilots, but potentially temporarily shutting down - and possibly even damaging (think CCD camera!) the actual night vision devices themselves.

    Having been on the receiving end of all kinds of things that cause flash blindness in the cockpit (including lasers),
    I would say that NON of it is very fun to the pilot, and given the opportunity, would love to beat the crap out of anyone stupid enough to shine a laser or spotlight into my cockpit!!
    Last edited by Stuka; 09-26-2010 at 10:00.
    RR

    Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by beamann View Post
    @ vpkid,
    PLEASE DO NOT TAKE THIS PERSONALY: I see that your new on the forum and this is your first post, you should read all the posts on a thead befor postin Q's By reading all posts you gain insight to what we are discusing and making any questions based on facts you have read, to fit in. Please read them all so you have a understanding of what your asking.
    I will do my best to help you with you questions you have posted here.
    1) Don't pilots wear sunglasses? Yes we do, most of us, it's not about being cool! as an air craft climbs higher and higher in altitude the U.V. glare increases do to the thinging of the air and this helps the Eyes. how many car, motorcycle and truck drivers have you seen driving at night with sunglasses on? We who fly at night do not wear sunglasses as we whant to see every point of light that my be in our flight path Example: Tall buildings have colored light markers on top to show pilots that they thar and could be a hazard to aircraft this includes radio towers for broadcasting (2000 feet tall) All aircraft that fly at night have what we call navagation lights (NAV lights) Left side of aircraft is green, rightside of air craft is red and the rear of the air craft is white with a blinking strobe light some ware in the middle. By the color and the position of were the nav lights are located we as pilots can tell at a glance if an aircraft is comming or going a way from the aircraft we are flying. This helps us to avoid mid air collisions with other aircrafts.
    2) If we fly at night with LASER SAFETY glasses which block Green wave lenghts of light and red wave lenghths of light we would not be able to see on comming flight traffic and any ground based structures that are so high above the ground that pose a flight hazared if they happen to be in our flight path.
    3) Look up on the FAA website FASDO or call your local air port they have a office for flight safety and accidents investagations. Thair have been incidents caused by laser pointers.

    You obvesly have a hand held "laser pointer" and you are not a pilot so your understanding the dangers of pointting an aircraft is little to none. A aircraft flying blind is as dangerouse as the the attack on the World Trade Towers in New York SEPT/11/00 (911). The bill for law HR 5810 will pass! If people would educate them selfves on what they are messing with, laws like this would not have to come to be, I don't like the extra restrictions any more than you do but I like even less flying my aircraft into a residental, Business building, apartment complex in a crash and burn because I got flashed by a laser pointer and now cannot see were I am going, killing my self and anybody eles that might be home sleeping or somthing in the area of the crash! Idiots with laser pointers are the same as idiots with guns when it comes to aircraft, cars, trucks or anyother vehical that requires a human operator to be multi tasking and have all senses to operate that vehical. Would you go out and point your laser at a car driver driving down the road? what do you think would happen if some one did some thing like that? how about a kid on a bicycal at NIGHT ridding down the side walk with thair sunglasses on now sudenly blinded by a joker just having fun, no meaness intended, how far would the ridder get befor the crash and burn. Have you ever rode a bicycal and closed your eyes to see if you can do it with out crashing? It's no diferent for aircraft!
    I hope this helps your understanding of the discustion of this tread.
    If you happen to be on of those people (IDIOTS WITH A LASER POINTER) and I don't think you are or you would not be asking questions on why is this a bad idea, those who point and flash aircraft are looking at 5 years in prison,and fines or their parents will be depending on the age of the convicted.
    Well said, beamann....
    RR

    Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eidetic View Post
    So it's illegal to point a laser into the sky anywhere in the Silicon Valley, because you're always less than ten miles to the center of the nearest airport. But here's a question: how about straight up, toward the zenith? Seems to me that a beam going straight up would be the safest. Anything but a helicopter would have all that metal between the pilot and the source. And what's the chance of one crossing that particular path? Still illegal, but a reasonable mitigation?
    So, what ABOUT the helicopter crew?

    It's only the slight chance of a helicopter catching beams through the clear plexiglass chin bubble, instead of a big plane full of people?

    Ever considered the fact that in some areas, helicopter traffic might be more prevalent than a bigger aircraft with "all that metal between the pilot and the source"?

    THAT is a reasonable mitigation, however illegal?

    Wow...

    See post # 54...

    (and yeah, I'll admit - I'm a bit "sensitive" when it comes to discussions involving helicopters...)
    Last edited by Stuka; 09-26-2010 at 10:09.
    RR

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  7. #57
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    You'll never hear me say that beams of high-intensity light don't pose a serious flash hazard to helicopter pilots.. it's airplane pilots that I think are better protected. Unless the situation was one of those freak instances where the beam was at just the right angle and bounced off of something shiny in the cockpit, I can't see much danger myself. Due to the angle of the cockpit windows in planes just getting the laser beam in there at all would be next to impossible except possibly at takeoff or landing, but even then to get enough light into the pilots eyes to cause flash blindness would be exceedingly difficult..

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    You'll never hear me say that beams of high-intensity light don't pose a serious flash hazard to helicopter pilots.. it's airplane pilots that I think are better protected. Unless the situation was one of those freak instances where the beam was at just the right angle and bounced off of something shiny in the cockpit, I can't see much danger myself. Due to the angle of the cockpit windows in planes just getting the laser beam in there at all would be next to impossible except possibly at takeoff or landing, but even then to get enough light into the pilots eyes to cause flash blindness would be exceedingly difficult..
    In general, I would agree -
    Fixed wing are better protected, and generally less susceptible to, interference from laser / spot lights in the cockpit...
    UNLESS the airplane is banking, in which case there is potentially a lot more plexiglass suddenly exposed!

    Takeoffs / landings -
    As you mentioned, that's pretty much a no-brainer for any aircraft and the hazards that could be presented by spotlighting / lasing!

    As far as what is / isn't considered "flash blindness" -
    As I mentioned in my post earlier, while I'm sure there are medical guidelines to specify what is truly "flash blindness", the magnitude of the effects, and subsequent damage to night vision, can vary greatly from pilot to pilot.

    Night flying can be extremely challenging for some pilots, especially the less experienced, and any unexpected spot light / laser interruption in the cockpit, with or without "flash blindness", could cause a lot of problems....
    RR

    Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
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  9. #59
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    good points, plus there are planes with bottom glass, so not all planes provide the same amount of protection.

  10. #60
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    A fair few of the problems actually occur BEFORE the light gets to the pilot!

    That plexi will (after it has been in use for a while) have fairly extensive scratches and abrasion damage to its outer face from everything from dust to insects.
    Hit it with a beam and all of that lights up, and a fraction of a watt of (now diffuse) 532 is more then enough to trash anyones night vision (even ignoring that the windscreen is now a projection surface and humans are pretty much hard wired to look toward the sudden light).

    Thanks, but in straight and level VFR flight I would get uptight about that, on approach or final at night I would be looking for someone to kill once I got back on the ground.

    One nice thing about the UK system is that the CAA will issue the NOTAM and will (by and large and excepting emergencies) deal with keeping planes away (no need for spotters).

    As to DIY spotlights, a DC welder, carbons from a cinema suppliers (they are still available), a suitable mirror and some clockwork to feed the carbon, job done.... Sure if you want Xenon it gets trickier (Ignition pulse, the running voltage is still usually under 30V) and the lamps are a little dangerous, but old school works.

    Regards, Dan.

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