Poll on safety/certification information avilability on PL.

[ElektroFreak]

Worlds full of dickbags.. it must really suck for you that you can't handle it.


Bob, you're not an asshole.. you try and try, but I'm the only one who's got it perfect.

As far as the resource goes.. I could give a shit about it. I've got what I wanted out of this shithole, and I made a bunch of you dance like idiots along the way. Now I'm going to take it all and share it with the world.. the less this community has to hoard the better. If there is any way that I can undermine your system, if there is any way I can crack the foundations of your club, rest assured that I will. I live for this kind of stuff.

Now, unless anyone else requests that I stick around.. I'm done here.

[gottaluvlasers]

EF-

In the pas i came to yuour defense, and i have yet to fly off the handle, but i cant for the life of me figure you out.

I am not going to make this a long post cuz frankly i have 1000 other things i need to be doing. But your lack of acceptance and your "flying off the handle" is just not neccessary. You speak much more eloquently (sp?) and get your point across MUCH MORE when you speak like a human being and not a pissed off conspiracy theorist.

I said this before, i enjoy reading your "against the grain" theories and ideas sometimes. You honestly do point out, many times, valid ideas and valid opinions. But this whole fight you are starting here is just ludicrous.

or.... they just think PL is a joke. And it is

I know and you know you dont believe that. Or perhaps if you *do* believe it, than at this point you do need to go your separate way from us.

You are unhappy and not satisfied with answers you get here becasue you cant see papers or pictures or quotes from a website. Why? Steve, X-Laser, Adam, Myself, many other people have answered 99% of the questions you have asked in the past and it has always been satisfactory to everyone else who ever asked these questions, except you. Do you really think some people on this forum get together on Saturday mornings and conspire ways to come up with falsehoods regarding laser safety and laser damage/injuries? Yes, i *do* agree with you. *SOMETIMES* some dangers are exaggerated to make points clear and to try to prove points to newer/stubborn members. But the fact of the matter is what steve and x-laser have said in thread is 100% correct. If you dont want to believe it or think it is false or think they are full of shit, than thats great. Thats your right as an american in this

US community that is simply nothing more than a joke

Your mentality kind of reminds me of me when i was a kid when my dad told me not to do something. "Why cant i light that firecracker in my hand dad?" "Cuz i said so son." "But, WHY?".......BOOM......OWWWWWWW....my hand!!!

Sometimes things are just simply the way they are becasue "Thats the way they are." You can choose to agree with it, believe it or not agree with it. But there are consequences for the choices you choose. You may not agree with the consequences. You may not see the points or the validity of the points, but they are there. Its what makes civilized society, civilized. Driving backwards on the highway in the wrong direction while drinking a beer probably doesnt have an *ACTUAL* written law somewhere of being dangerous/illegal or "Proof" that it is dangerous, but i guarantee you, if you do it, you're gonna get nailed and/or killed.

laws, regulations, safety standards, rules- are there to protect the people at large. alot of times we dont agree with them, but they are there to protect us. if *YOU* think they are BS or want proof of why a law is a law or want "data" to support a law, well youre asking for justification for things that just aint gonna happen (for the most part). Does this make you right? NOPE! does it make "us" right? NOPE. does it make it, "Just the way it is?" YES SIR!

Steve, X-Laser have explained them selves quite well and in all honesty i am surprised they responded as many times they did to your immature rants. They have NO responsibility to explain themselves to you the way you are acting. They have supported their facts and claims. If they are unacceptable to you, than that is YOUR problem. Not theirs. It is good enough for 99.9% of the rest of us.

your getting way too personal and way too excited on here. And there is no need for it.

Settle down a little and i guarantee you you will get more answers and get more from this community.

-Marc

[DanG]

... there's no excuse for slander and there's no excuse for professionals claiming that there is a "legal gray area" for their buddies to use so that they CAN break the law.

You've got a professional that owns a company selling certified laser projectors trying to convince me that there is a "gray area" in the law that just happens to conveniently fit his cronies.

I never said, insinuated or implied that I thought it was OK to break the law... nor can I even imagine who my "cronies" are. I don't even know most of the people doing this... You are twisting my words.

I strongly advocate at every opportunity that people be compliant and in fact my strong advocation for that point - and its' natural foil that some people are not - that started this whole mess.

I don't see the world as black and white... because it is not. I do not think that not being able to wait for a piece of paper is precisely the same as putting guests at risk... because it is not.

I really don't know from where you anger comes; where your bitterness comes.

My father has expressions to and one of his favorites goes something like: "A tough as it is to deal with him, imagine what it is like to be him." That lesson taught me empathy but you have exhausted my capacity which is not easy to do.

I suppose you will take that as a congratulations so kudos and best wishes for a better life someday.

[buffo]

If you recall, I've been here for awhile now, and I wasn't always an asshole.

I remember that we've had this discussion about your attitude several times in the past. I also remember that people who frequent LPF saying the same thing about your attitude problem over there. So while you may not always be an asshole, you've definitely had a problem with your attitude for quite some time now.

Hint: If you consistently think that everyone else around you is an asshole, chances are good that you're actually the one with the attitude problem.

all you have ever had to say is that I should bend over, take it, and then nicely ask for help

I have *NEVER* said that. I have only ever asked you to be polite. You, on the other hand, have consistently exaggerated the problem to make yourself out to be the victim. As I said above, if you honestly believe everyone around you is an asshole, it's likely that the real problem lies with yourself.

It was all over the minute someone here decided to accuse me of breaking the law with no evidence to support that position.

First, you didn't contradict what Steve said. A simple statement like "I only own one projector, and it didn't come from China. I built it myself. Furthermore, I have never performed a commercial laser show with my projector" would have brought the issue to a close. Instead, you responded with "news to me" and "fear, doubt, uncertainty - that's all we have." Not a very strong rebuttal, is it? What do you think a neutral observer would conclude?

Then you asked who Fred and Amanda were. Well, you should know, because in your previous post you said you wanted to hear about the regulations from someone other than X-laser or One Stop Laser Shop (OSLS). Fred and Amanda are the two people who started OSLS after buying what was left of New Method Lasers from Bob Ash. If you don't even know the people you're trashing, maybe you don't have any business trashing them...

there's no excuse for professionals claiming that there is a "legal gray area" for their buddies to use so that they CAN break the law.

You don't get it, do you? It's not a grey area for "their buddies". It really is a grey area, for EVERYONE. In case you haven't noticed, the CDRH is unresponsive. So several people have had to force the CDRH's hand, in order to get a ruling on something. Example: Pangolin and Lighting Systems Design Inc. had to both threaten to *sue* the CDRH in order to get them to rule on the P.A.S.S. system that they developed for audience scanning, and even so it took them nearly 2 years to get that done.

X-Laser had to do something similar to get a ruling on the clause in 21 CFR 1040 that states that a certified laser manufacturer must first verify that a customer has a light show variance *before* they can sell them a projector. The solution they came up with is still cumbersome as hell, but at least it allows them to do business with first-time laser projector buyers while still being legal.

Now, these companies have spend a lot of time and money (lawyers aren't cheap, remember) to get these results out of the CDRH. And sharing all of that knowledge with the entire community, while great in theory, is certainly hurting them, since they would be giving away one of their competitive advantages. Nevertheless, several companies have shared some of this information anyway, in the interest of helping hobbyists like you.

And how do you reward them? By pissing in their face. Good call...

the stellar examples found in this thread and the spacelas review thread go well beyond a reasonable response to an "asshole". They show how people here really think about outsiders.

No, they show how people here respond to *rude* posts. Nothing more. We're all human, and sometimes we get fed up when a new member signs up and starts *demanding* that we do something.

The public is not always nice, they're not always going to kiss ass, but they need to be educated.

Fine. You educate them. Do what everyone else here has done. Go read the standards. Print them out and carry them around with you. Read through 21 CFR 1040 until you can begin to quote sections from memory. While you're at it, download Sam's Laser FAQ and install it on your computer at home. Then read through it several times, until you feel comfortable answering questions about all kinds of lasers.

Then go out there and seek out the rude people who want everything done for them, and done right now. Go ahead and spoon-feed them all the information you've learned. And after a year or two of doing that, you can come back here and tell us all about how you are a much better person than everyone else.

Until then though, you don't have a leg to stand on. Because all you've been doing is criticizing what we've been doing. You haven't shown us any effort on your part to educate yourself. What's worse is that you don't even know what sort of work is going on behind the scenes. If you had been at SELEM this year (or at least at the safety lecture that Casey Stack put on for us the day after), you would have at least some idea of the vast network of people working on this stuff.

These are people who have committed themselves to doing it *right*, and they're working together to help each other. Some of that information is posted here on PL, but not all of it, because frankly each situation is different, and it's much easier to convey information face to face than it is to type it all out. In the end I imagine a lot of the things we're learning now as a result of all this effort will get posted on PL, but as we're all still in the process of working through the paperwork, we're not going to post too much until we've got our variances in hand.

Get over the pettiness, and then you guys can maybe convince me you aren't jokes.

I don't feel any need to "prove" myself, to you or anyone else. What's more, people like Steve and Dan aren't going to "prove" themselves to you either. If you doubt what they say, look up the relevant standard for yourself and see if you can find where they've made a mistake. Maybe everyone will learn something as a result.

Oh wait - that would require you to actually do some work, wouldn't it? And you're right: it's much easier to just bitch about someone else here in the forums than it is to do your own research, isn't it?

You've got a professional that owns a company selling certified laser projectors trying to convince me that there is a "gray area" in the law that just happens to conveniently fit his cronies.

We've been over this before. If you don't believe it, why don't you call the ombudsman office at the CDRH and pose the question to them yourself? That would certainly be more productive than you bitching about it here...

You've got a local hero who can't come up with a good defense, so he resorts to making up bullshit without the tiniest shred of evidence to support it,

You have also not offered any real denial of the accusation. In light of this fact, I'm inclined to believe Steve. If it's a case of mistaken identity, then defend yourself already.

you've got a whole group of people telling me that unless I'm "nice", and unless the conditions are just right, then they won't educate the public, primarily because public knowedge can be a threat to their business interests.

There you go again, exaggerating the truth... I said that you need to be polite. I didn't say anything about the conditions being right. Just be polite. Is that really too much to ask?

Also, Steve is not in the business of doing laser shows. True, 15 years ago he was, but those days are long gone. So he's not protecting his business interests at all. And he's more than willing to share his information. He has done so numerous times.

Dan over at X-laser is the only one who has been reluctant to share the specifics of his variance process. And given the amount of money he's put into it, I can understand why he wants to keep that quiet. But you'll also notice that he's still providing lots of good information about certification in general. He was the one who first reminded everyone about Laser Notice 50 (allowing certification under IEC regs in leu of portions of 21 CFR 1040) and he was also the one who pointed out that the CDRH can not impede commerce (it's against their charter).

Note that other laser projector manufacturers (Lasernet, Lightwave, etc) are not posting here on PL. They are not sharing any information, with anyone. Personally, I'm thankful for any information Dan is willing to provide. Likewise, Pangolin has *thousands* of pages of helpful information on their website. They don't have to put that information out there, but they do, and we all benefit from it. I wish other companies would do the same.

The fact that I'm an asshole should have no bearing on this community's desire to educate the public.

So let me get this straight: You honestly believe that it is everyone's duty here on PL to spoon-feed safety information to everyone and anyone on the forum, no matter how rude or insulting they are, and no matter how obstinate or argumentative they are?

You do realize that none of us are getting paid for doing this, right? We're here reading and posting because we want to help people, not because it's our obligation to. And given that we're here of our own free will, it's only natural that we aren't going to stick around if people constantly treat us like shit.

You have been treating people like shit. People don't like that. Thus, people don't like you, and they don't want to help you. It's as simple as that. Even so, people have given you more than enough information to get you started on the variance process. Sure, the replies have been curt, but that's what you get when you're an asshole.

If you want someone to sit down with you and go over the variance form line-by-line (as someone recently did with me), you'd better be polite, because that person will be giving up a couple hours of his or her free time to do that for you. Who wants to spend a couple hours with an asshole? Not me, that's for sure...

Adam

[ElektroFreak]

Let me put it another way then. I do not care if you ever educate a living soul, which is why I refuse to lift a finger to help. I am merely pointing out that it's hard for people to bitch about someone breaking the law when they won't do anything to help the situation.. but so be it. It's your problem, not mine. I'm not trying to do business with laser shows.

Do you fuckers seriously think that the way I act here reflects how I behave in the real world? If so you're delusional, but i have no interest in cluing anyone here in on my life and how great it really is. I'm just posting this crap because I cannot stand the bloody lot of you, and therefore I find it rewarding.

At the end of my workday at my kickass job, I'll go home to my beautiful wife and children and treasure every moment of it as I always do. As for you all I think your online club here is garbage so I have no issue being a dick whenever you give me the opportunity. Why do I feel that way? You all have been here the whole time... you tell me. I don't necessarily believe that what I see here represents who you all are in real life. If so, great. If not, it's the internet so who cares.

[carlos3621]

BI-POLAR is, a treatable disease,
seek medical attention allready!

[DanG]

I propose we just drop this whole thing and let EF rant to himself. It is not doing anyone any good to fuel his desire for negative attention.

If you agree, just move on to other things like being productive in whatever you do.

[mixedgas]

quote:
Also, Steve is not in the business of doing laser shows. True, 15 years ago he was, but those days are long gone. So he's not protecting his business interests at all. And he's more than willing to share his information. He has done so numerous times.
end quote.

For the record, Steve has backstage access tags hanging in his room with dates within one year.

Steve filed a renewal for his variance two years ago to start doing shows again, only to find out at SELEM he had the wrong mailing address for a certain government agency..

Steve

[ElektroFreak]

I propose we just drop this whole thing and let EF rant to himself. It is not doing anyone any good to fuel his desire for negative attention.

If you agree, just move on to other things like being productive in whatever you do.

Wow.. it only took this long for someone to get it. Good job!

[buffo]

At the end of my workday at my kickass job, I'll go home to my beautiful wife and children and treasure every moment of it as I always do.

Ok - seriously dude: Who the hell said anything about your wife and kids? Why are you turning this into a "get a life" argument? Are you that insecure that you need to brag to everyone that you have a family life? Or are you so naive as to assume you are the only one with a wife and kids here?

I don't necessarily believe that what I see here represents who you all are in real life.

Yes, this is exactly who we are in real life. We don't see any need to put on a different character just because we're on-line. This should be self-evident from all the videos of past laser enthusiast's meetings that are posted on the FTP server and all over YouTube. We are the same quirky bunch in person, though admittedly we have a lot more fun when we're all face to face than when were on-line.

Seriously, you think we all act differently in person? That's all the more reason to meet some of us. Then maybe you'll realize that it's not us, but you who has the problem.

If not, it's the internet so who cares.

It's not OK to be an asshole just because "it's the Internet". If you think otherwise, then you're a jerk, pure and simple. (Or a troll, which is worse.) There's no excuse for bad behavior, on-line or in person. I would think an adult of your age and experience would understand that by now.

And as to your question about "who cares", I can answer that one: We do! We care, because we are the same people on-line as we are in person, and just like we don't want to sit next to assholes on the bus, or in a restaurant, we don't want to deal with assholes on-line, either.

EDIT: Steve, I knew you still worked occasionally as a laserist with Carl and others, but I didn't know you still maintained your own variance. My bad!

Adam