Who needs a pointer anymore?

[Eidetic]

Many students (at least in California) graduate high school, literally being unable to construct a complete sentence.

Peace,
dave

I wonder why those people are allowed to graduate. It might be the parents' and students' fault they can't write, but it has to be the school system's fault they're allowed to move on. If they can't construct a proper sentence, there's no wonder why they can't stay on-topic in discussions or make rational arguments for their uneducated points of view.

[Stoney3K]

I wonder why those people are allowed to graduate.

Because they were good at sports.

[daguin]

Because they were good at sports.

Would that it was that simple . . .

One of the places I teach is "fed" by the Los Angeles Unified School District (LAUSD). I would estimate that less than 20% are prepared for college. That is 20% of the students I see enrolled in college, NOT 20% of all students.

"No Child Left Behind" (Federal program) and "social promotion" (keep the same age groups together) along with the "self esteem movement" (don't make the child feel inferior - every body is equal) add up to students being promoted simply because they didn't happen to die that year

Peace,
dave

[dnar]

"No Child Left Behind" (Federal program) and "social promotion" (keep the same age groups together) along with the "self esteem movement" (don't make the child feel inferior - every body is equal) add up to students being promoted simply because they didn't happen to die that year

Peace,
dave

We have/had a similar "no child left behind" program here in Australia. It did not work. How do we know? Skills shortage in the work place. Simple.

Now, we find most schools have split years. My son attended split year classes most of his junior education. For example, year 6/7. the smartest kids that should be in year 6 attend 6/7. it works from what I have seen.

Back in pre-school we once received a worrying phone call followed by a letter from the school, advising us that our son had A.D.D. and big issues with concentration. We where like W.T.F? at the time my son was building mechano and wiring simple circuits at home. He used to spend hours at my work bench soldering wires to bare boards, soldering simple PCB kits etc. He was and is very smart!

Anyways, the school brought in several specialists to monitor and report on Alex. The findings? Very high IQ and no ADD! His problem was that the teachers programs and activities bored him to tears!!! That teacher never really spoke to us again after this messed up assessment on her behalf.

Alex is now 15, doing very well in math, science, technology and about to enter the last 2 years of upper school. At home he writes code in bash, python, C etc and compiles his own Linux kernels. He now keeps me up to date with the latest kernel news! He has recently designed and built his own AV matrix switchers (2) and has both his bedroom and study fully integrated. He can play/watch any source in either room (TV, Set top box, Playstation, PC). He's a real chip off the block.

I am so pleased he has been given the opportunity to excel at school and to move through the system at his pace.

I have worked with "kids" moving in to the work place over the past 10 years that just amaze me. Practically no usable skill's to speak of. English and gramma are poor, as is math. The past philosophy of "no one shall fail" was flawed. Sure, no one failed school, but they sure fail when they hit the real world!!!! It is sad for them. They end up working at McDonalds or similar.

Another sad observation that I am sure exists globally, although not always, is the peer pressure that states "smart is not cool" etc. I have met some of the "cool set" I used to go to school with 30 years ago, it is quite hilarious to see them now. I bumped in to the "coolest dude" of all time at high school a few years back, he came to pump the septic tanks at my place of work. I was the Engineering Manager, he was pumping shit. Irony?

[Stoney3K]

Back in pre-school we once received a worrying phone call followed by a letter from the school, advising us that our son had A.D.D. and big issues with concentration. (...) Anyways, the school brought in several specialists to monitor and report on Alex. The findings? Very high IQ and no ADD! His problem was that the teachers programs and activities bored him to tears!

That sounds surprisingly familiar, as I had the same problem in all of my former education as well.

Ultimately, the school director advised me to go to university (electrical engineering), which was intellectually challenging, but boring as hell since 90% of the education programme was nothing but maths and algebra. I'm a sucker for information, but only if it has a purpose and I can use it to achieve a certain goal.

Right now I'm a bit stuck between a rock and a hard place: I can finish university (at the cost of tremendous effort and money), and run the risk that my knowledge is useless in the short term, or I can start from scratch. There is no in-between, since education institutions here have no system of 'transferring' credits. ECTS was supposed to enable that, but it does not work.

In any case, if you give me a practical problem or some device to build, I've got it sorted in under a day's work, and gather all of the knowledge and skills required for it myself. For some oddball reason, schools and universities can't cater for that sort of learning processes, which leaves a lot of more 'gifted' kids stuck with the programme and therefore lacking in development.

Another sad observation that I am sure exists globally, although not always, is the peer pressure that states "smart is not cool" etc. I have met some of the "cool set" I used to go to school with 30 years ago, it is quite hilarious to see them now. I bumped in to the "coolest dude" of all time at high school a few years back, he came to pump the septic tanks at my place of work. I was the Engineering Manager, he was pumping shit. Irony?

I fail to see the reasoning behind that as well. The smart people get all the decent jobs because they have the expertise to make stuff work. But for some reason, a lot of people don't give a damn about that and prefer to hang out with the high school cheerleader instead of the local hacker club. (Which would ultimately back-fire if the local hacker club happened to be their boss in 15 years down the road.)

Then there's the common misconception that 'smart people' are unpopular, socially incompetent and not beautiful. Reality check: Have you ever watched an Iron Maiden concert? I'm not even going to get started on the learning curves that Bruce Dickinson went through 'just for the fun of it'.

[dnar]

A University education is only half the puzzle.

Once graduated, you must learn practical skills and real life scenarios. Not that you don't have some of that out of Uni, but experience is most of it. You need both.

I have worked with grads that are useless yet pass exams with good scores. I have also worked with grads that expect the big $$$ immediately and they do not see the folly of this expectation... I have worked with non-Uni educated engineers, that are just as good if not better. With Engineering, you simply need the theory background and degree to get the jobs...

[Robin]

I wonder why those people are allowed to graduate. It might be the parents' and students' fault they can't write, but it has to be the school system's fault they're allowed to move on. If they can't construct a proper sentence, there's no wonder why they can't stay on-topic in discussions or make rational arguments for their uneducated points of view.

What's the point of learning grammar and spelling to communicate your ideas clearly when you can just pay someone else to do it for you?

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Shadow-Scholar/125329/

[mixedgas]

Right now I'm a bit stuck between a rock and a hard place: I can finish university (at the cost of tremendous effort and money), and run the risk that my knowledge is useless in the short term, or I can start from scratch. There is no in-between, since education institutions here have no system of 'transferring' credits. ECTS was supposed to enable that, but it does not work.

---------------

Do not skip the degree.Here is why:

Here, I am the Ghost of Christmas Past, and if you do not know what that is, read Charles Dickens' 1843 novel, A Christmas Carol.

I had problems with the bore you to tears math. In Engineering math classes in the USA, they expect you to teach yourself. Oh, yes, you attend class, but the teaching assistant teaching 250 students, in lieu of a full professor does not give a damn about learning, they just wish to rush through class and get back to their graduate research. English is usually not their first language, either. Having done the supporting tech work for grad students, I do not blame them, being a grad student is tough to say the least.

I was young, not that mature, used to being spoon fed, had LD problems with complex variables, and impatient. Learning something as complex as calculus is not easy for me, especially while carrying a full load of other classes. My intro EE program was so tough, they reduced the load on first and second years after I left, the drop out and transfer rate was killing them. Only one in six made it.

I ended up switching majors. I did not end up working in my degree field. I ended up doing tasks which are split between EE R&D and Advanced Technician. I fell back on my Electronics and Physics hobby for my work.

Let me tell you something. If you wish to do engineering or technology, finish the boring degree. Even experiences like eight years doing primary work in a graduate lab facility counts for zero with the human resources office when you need to get hired. I just spent a year+ doing project design work in a facility for a defense contractor, and I could not be hired directly, non EE degree, and it was policy that non engineers were not hired, EVER, period. Even the machinists in the prototype shop had ME degrees of some sort. I had to work for a outside contractor so they could get around the corporate policy. This was a one billion dollar a year company, and they thought they would go directly to a flaming hell, if they reduced their standards.

The same engineering books were on my desk, the same calculator, and the same cad system for schematics. I designed and developed and built the prototype, and I could pretty much blow away their junior engineers. But, I was harassed, took some taunting, and had a hard time getting facility access. Until said junior engineers had to take my prototype to manufacturing and found they could not duplicate it, oh, he is just a skilled tech, we can do that "toy" in our sleep. Yeah, right... I took a lot of heat for just building my own prototypes, "Real engineers let the bench techs do that"... Yeah right.,,,

So when it became clear that the prototype's conversion to manufacturing was behind, they finally let me meet with the senior engineers, all of which were responsible for their own projects, and were to look over my shoulder during the conversion to manufacturing, because the unique materials and methods I used. were NOT the by the book, easy to get stuff.

Not to mention possible legal problems arising with my use of open source code to speed development. When the rubber hit the road, in manufacturing, the senior types with degrees could blow me out of the water, and did so a few times. Its humbling, but a meaningful experience. They, however, would recognize the good points of my project, and understood bench work is needed. They also saw that, by being a outsider in a off facility office, I could cut through red tape like butter, and do things quicker. But that did not mean I used proper materials that they could have their massive purchasing department get. "Oh gawd, he used a non standard, not ROHS transformer with no ISO tracing". Digikey does not stock them. They have not been made in ten years. Um, can we say instant expensive redesign?

What I'm trying to say is the PL, do it your self, not traditional, experimentation way is similar to research, and not engineering for manufacturing. Yes, my prototype was a success, and it was good enough that it was yanked off the bench and sent to sales before testing was even complete. Yes, it is making sales right now for my former employer.

Oh, and I loved the engineers talking about their benefits package, and vacations to exotic places and nice cars. You don't get that if your "line" or "technician".

So if you quit EE, and do not change work fields, you will face the following:

HR will not hire you, you are not "qualified" for any task, and they do not care if you can debate Quantum Mechanics with Einstein. You are however, equally overqualified for being a "technician". When times are tough, like they are now, non qualified folks do not get a foot in the door. When times are booming, some one will grab you because they like the idea of extra staff at half the cost, and staff that can solder, at that. I have a long list of tools and equipment that I am qualified on, on my resume. HR people have accused me of lying, no non engineer could have ever possibly ran a electron beam coater, a 2 ghz oscilloscope, or built laser Doppler velocimetry rigs. Heck, most HR people have no idea what that is.

SO when you apply for a job without the degree, your application gets shredded. In other words, non conforming but equal experience does not count. This is even more true in Europe, where engineering is more of a profession like a doctor or lawyer, then the US.

Your employers will be at best, small businesses that cannot afford a full EE, or entrepreneurs that need some one who can meet goals and manage themselves and build prototypes. Entrepreneurs are volatile, and when they are done with your contributions to their success, you need to find a new home. In rare cases a research facility might pick you up, once you have skills. But when the economy goes south every 10-12 years, your in trouble. You never make it to permanent staff.
You have to pick up and move cross country, time after time, and forget buying a permanent home.

If your lucky, you can start your own business, and one in five small businesses make it to five years. After five years, you will need a new business. Once you have small business experience and are used to being your own boss, HR will not hire you, you are too difficult to manage and you do not fit in the seniority system.

Grant awarding agencies, Quality control systems (ISO 9000 whatever) State safety agencies, and Professional Societies will not accept your work. You cannot publish in a recognized, peer reviewed journal. You can't become a licensed Professional Engineer in the states or elsewhere. Your projects are uninsurable. My drawings in the plant had my initials on them, and my initials were entered into the "Engineer of Record" database, but had a flag after them. My drawings had to be redrawn by a licensed PE for quality control and liability reasons. Good luck getting financing for your own projects, too.

So damn it, get the parchment. It may be boring now, It may be expensive, but you will deeply regret it if you do it the non traditional way.

Projects these days are sophisticated and done by teams. The days of the lone inventor/engineer are not 100% over, but the sheer complexity of modern stuff will ensure that the lone inventor is the rarity, starting in the next decade. You would think that modern tools and software would cure this, until you realize it takes a skilled person to do a plastics mold, a skilled person to ensure the PCB meets mass manufacturing standards, and a team to do a sane design review.

Purchasing parts to make one hundred thousand of something is far different then placing a digikey order, and suppliers of exotic parts want to see enough of a prototype and the resources of a full corporation before they will even send you a datasheet. Oh and yes, chip makers ask you where you went to school, when you request data about a part. They can sniff out the non EEs, and will refuse to sell to you, its hard to get state of the art stuff if your a sole proprietor.

Engineers like statistics and grade hard, there is no social promotion, and if you do not make the cut, they have no problems stamping a "Fail" on your project and ending it, or your career. They can be very brutal.


In short, FUCKING Don't quit EE school, if you already love electronics and can do the math. Once your out of school, its nearly impossible to go back.

Steve

[mixedgas]

"It is sad for them. They end up working at McDonalds or similar."
--------end quote-----

McDonalds no longer takes them. A McDonalds in the states, that used to need 12 employees on shift, now has three or four. It was easier to kill the "30 second" rule, hire older workers, and make the customers wait five minutes, then to keep doing the paperwork, training, and to pay the FICA benefits for a location having a staff of 100 part timers.

I am proudly former crew, back from when they used to make a hamburger and fries the right way. Gas grill, no robotics, no microwave, no sugar in the buns, and 100% raw beef patties without 32 different added chems and preservatives.

Of course I probably contributed to the heart attacks of thousands, but it paid my way through a lot of school. It also taught me customer relations, which the modern kids have no clue of. We were expected to fix our own problems without a manager, and our keyboards did NOT have pictures of the burgers on the keys. In a emergency, I could run my cash drawer on paper, and the drive thru on order slips. We had to pass skills tests and were given lessons. Today if the computer goes down, they close the store.

*** The education of the "crew" is roughly the same level, but the time/labor they are willing to spend on training is now zero ****


To really screw up a good concept, trim labor, slow it down, make nasty food, and add computers and robotics to the mix.

For a good laugh, watch the robot make one soft drink at a time no faster then a human.. I could do four at once.

I'm sure its a world wide problem, but its maddening when I hand a cashier 20.08 for a 18.08 item and they cannot make change.

For those of you whom are young, a McDonald's district manager used to drive around at random, from store to store. They would set in the parking lot with a stopwatch. If your order times started to exceed thirty seconds, they would come inside and start to help out, in order to get the times back to 30 seconds. If the times hit 60 seconds, the yelling started. When the rush was over, they would go from employee to employee, either making suggestions or yelling. Mostly yelling. They would then pull the manager back into the office for a long yelling and screaming session. Their pay was tied directly to sales. It worked. They also were the one of the first US companies to use statistical process control and apply six sigma math to quality control.

As a employee, I could have bought stock shares on a per paycheck basis. Not any more.

Nowdays its easier to loose sales and loose customers, because it is ironically more profitable then doing it "right". So they attack the kids with saturated advertising and thus train the parents to wait.

Taco bell is burying them, at least in sales figures per unit of customer time. Wendy's and Burger King beat them on customer service.

Steve







Steve

[MechEng3]

Ah true....but alas there are individuals that have the credentials and the grade.....plus the best of all...the knowledge and skills to actually fulfill all those roles and produce a product...turn key. There are also skilled artisans who primarily create from an idea...hands on machine work at the CNC or manual with a piece of material and programming knowledge. Then again there are guys I know that can make a perfectly round , steel basketball from flat stock with minimal tools....but have trouble with addictions. There are some rare breed hard cores out there...that enjoy all of the math and hands on. Then there is management....just make sure it no longer functions correctly after “X” hours of service or...insert threat of choice...that's the part I have trouble with. To relay a noted comment from a friend....."if the basic structure of learning the fundamentals is not understood.....leaving empty, unsupported structure if you will, the pyramid of that skillset or knowledge base will eventually topple and fall".