New EYEMAGIC Scanners EMS7000

[absolom7691]

Hello Everyone,

We just got the information from Mr. Yayas (under the ''FLEM'' thread) that the set of our EMS-7000 that was brought at the FLEM for ''testing'' was actually brought by Mr. Bill Benner himself.

The conclusions are yours.

By the way, we have never sold a set to Pangolin. So, from what ''factory'' the scanners came adjusted at 45K ?

Keep up the good work, Mr. Benner !

Best regards,

Tom Kamaras
EyeMagic

Tom, I respect the work you have put into the product, but I would be very careful not to insinuate that Bill would have mis-adjusted these glavos, especially in the presence of many laser enthusiasts from this forum. Most of them are near experts at tuning such galvos, Adam (Buffo) being one of them. Bill is also one of the foremost experts at tuning galvos. I understand your skepticism but I don't think Bill would want to ruin his image just to make a point on a small discussion on a small forum...

[EyeMagic]

Tom, I respect the work you have put into the product, but I would be very careful not to insinuate that Bill would have mis-adjusted these glavos, especially in the presence of many laser enthusiasts from this forum. Most of them are near experts at tuning such galvos, Adam (Buffo) being one of them. Bill is also one of the foremost experts at tuning galvos. I understand your skepticism but I don't think Bill would want to ruin his image just to make a point on a small discussion on a small forum...

Hello Mr. Absolom,

I think we expressed ourselves incorrectly and we apologize (it is not always easy to translate from Greek to English and keep the same meaning and tone).

Off-course we do not suggest that the scanners were mis-adjusted by anyone. We are confindent that the scanners that were presented at FLEM where faulty. The reduced performance, the image imperfections suggest exactly that. The fact that Mr. Benner said that they were factory adjusted to 45K also shows that the scanners where in some strange condition. Somewere else in this forum, Mr. Benner also said that he did an inside analysis of the coil etc. In order to do this, you have to completely dismantle the scanner to pieces. Re-assembly could have also introduced some issues.

What we are sceptical about is :

- Why a company making laser control software (and not scanners) has unleased a so intense chase against our products

This is why we are sceptical.

- Why a company making a laser control software dedicated to laser graphics (beyond 3d) isn't happy that at the same time another company introduces a lower cost fast scanner. The existence of a lower cost ''graphics'' scanner actually helps users save some money to buy the new Beyong 3d software

This is why we are sceptical.

- Why a company, in this small market as ours, is after another company's products. Isn't the chinese competition strong enough and we need internal competition ?

This is why we are sceptical.


Now, I have to leave. I am baptising my second kid in a few hours and I have to remove that ''I-was-working-all-night'' look from my face !

All the best to everyone,

Tom Kamaras
EyeMagic

[andythemechanic]

Just to drive this topic completely off-topic: Why is this 60k Hype there anyways?
Take a look at this: http://www.famous-company.com/pm_nyquist.htm
The numbers there might have improved since then but for sure modern scanners don't have five times the corner frequency than the ct6800.
What I ask myself there is: Why doesn't more stuff happen on the software side, since obviously a good resampling algorithm can turn any frame displayable with 60k down to say 30k without making display quality worse. So where is this algorithm? These thoughts from the mentioned link are possibly already more than 10 years old.

Andreas

[absolom7691]

The conclusions are yours.

Perhaps my conclusions were misguided. I don't believe Bill is questioning your product at all. In fact, I think he holds your product in high regard. What I think he is questioning is the advertising. You make a low-cost, high quality galvo. Based on the test that were done, they perform well, but not as well at the advertised specifications. Again, it is a good product and no one questions that, and many, here, have had great success with past products. It is just the advertisment that looks off.

[andyf97]

Great points there Tom, I can sum up the actions quite easily as greed or ego driven.

I love this phrase that sums up a certain character who is becoming more and more annoying to more and more people.
"I am the greatest, I am the king, all my things are better than yours and nothing can challenge what I say because I know everything....."

Have a nice time with the new child and keep up with the great innovation.

Hello Mr. Absolom,

I think we expressed ourselves incorrectly and we apologize (it is not always easy to translate from Greek to English and keep the same meaning and tone).

Off-course we do not suggest that the scanners were mis-adjusted by anyone. We are confindent that the scanners that were presented at FLEM where faulty. The reduced performance, the image imperfections suggest exactly that. The fact that Mr. Benner said that they were factory adjusted to 45K also shows that the scanners where in some strange condition. Somewere else in this forum, Mr. Benner also said that he did an inside analysis of the coil etc. In order to do this, you have to completely dismantle the scanner to pieces. Re-assembly could have also introduced some issues.

What we are sceptical about is :

- Why a company making laser control software (and not scanners) has unleased a so intense chase against our products

This is why we are sceptical.

- Why a company making a laser control software dedicated to laser graphics (beyond 3d) isn't happy that at the same time another company introduces a lower cost fast scanner. The existence of a lower cost ''graphics'' scanner actually helps users save some money to buy the new Beyong 3d software

This is why we are sceptical.

- Why a company, in this small market as ours, is after another company's products. Isn't the chinese competition strong enough and we need internal competition ?

This is why we are sceptical.


Now, I have to leave. I am baptising my second kid in a few hours and I have to remove that ''I-was-working-all-night'' look from my face !

All the best to everyone,

Tom Kamaras
EyeMagic

[buffo]

We are confindent that the scanners that were presented at FLEM where faulty. The reduced performance, the image imperfections suggest exactly that.

In the interest of clearing this up, would you be willing to submit another set of scanners for testing? I have a test stand with a single 100 mw green laser on it that I've used for many, many scanner tests over the years (the results of which have been published here on PhotonLexicon). I would be happy to set your scanners on this test stand and verify their performance. And of course, I'll return them to you as soon as I'm finished.

The fact that Mr. Benner said that they were factory adjusted to 45K also shows that the scanners where in some strange condition.

I replied to this in the FLEM thread, but to reiterate: You are misunderstanding what Bill was saying. He ran the scanners at 60K and 8 degrees scan angle and showed that the ILDA test pattern looked terrible. Then he reduced the scan speed until the pattern looked normal, and that was when the speed had been reduced to around 45K.

This goes back to the definition of scan speed. A 30K scanner should be able to display the ILDA test pattern with no artifacts (that is, circle inside the square and just touching the edges with no hint of pulling apart and no overshoot or undershoot on the corners of the square) at a minimum of 8 degrees scan angle. If they can't do that, they're not true 30K scanners. The same goes for a 60K set. You need to be able to draw the ILDA pattern perfectly at 8 degrees or you're not really 60K.

Somewere else in this forum, Mr. Benner also said that he did an inside analysis of the coil etc. In order to do this, you have to completely dismantle the scanner to pieces. Re-assembly could have also introduced some issues.

Bill stated that he had at least two (and I believe he might have had three) complete sets of your scanners. The set he brought to FLEM was right out of the box. They were not disassembled in any way.

Why a company making laser control software (and not scanners) has unleased a so intense chase against our products

That's easy enough to answer: Bill had a competing scanner design that he was ready to ship. He talked about it at SELEM last year. But the performance of his scanner was only on par with, or at best only slightly better than, the current state of the art, which is the Cambridge 6215H's. Considering that his scanners would be cheaper than the Cambridge units, he felt he still had a solid product. Then you started advertizing your scanners as being the fastest in the world. I read numerous claims that seemed to say your EMS-7000's were not just better than the 6215-H's, but *significantly* better. Faced with that sort of quantum leap in performance, Bill shelved his scanner design and started work on a completely new one.

Then he hears from a few users that the EMS-7000's are not nearly as good as they were advertized. Someone sends him a pair and he tests them. Then he collects a few more sets. (I don't believe he purchased them directly; probably had another person buy them for him.) And the test results are the same: the EMS-7000's don't live up to the hype he's been reading. He even takes one set apart, and discovers that there is no radical new technology inside. So he posts about how your advertizing claims don't add up, and he immediately gets attacked for spreading "lies" about your scanners.

Bill brought the scanners to FLEM for everyone to see so he could prove that he wasn't making all this stuff up. And everyone who cared to watch the tests could see the results.

The existence of a lower cost ''graphics'' scanner actually helps users save some money to buy the new Beyong 3d software

If they were truly as good as the hype, I'd agree with you. But we showed at FLEM that there are several other scanner brands that are both cheaper and faster than your EMS-7000's.

And, again, if you maintain that these must have been defective scanners, then I'd be happy to test a new set and post the results here. Believe me, I'd love to be wrong about your scanners. The idea of a set of scanners that is both faster *and* cheaper than a set of Cambridge 6215-H's is very cool indeed. But I won't believe it until I see it, whether you make them, or Bill does, or some other company...

Adam

[Picasso]

I know of an un-used set from the group buy on the EMS-7000's local and will see about putting them to the test. It would be nice to note the details or post the ILDA test file he used just to make sure everyone is looking at the same thing.

[White-Light]

I know of an un-used set from the group buy on the EMS-7000's local and will see about putting them to the test. It would be nice to note the details or post the ILDA test file he used just to make sure everyone is looking at the same thing.

They're built into Pangolin software. If you have a copy of QS just go to Settings.

[LaNeK779]

many people talked of that detailed test that happened at the LEM (notes, photos, tables etc etc etc)
since then, none has managed to post anything more detailed

so until then, i think this discussion is pointless. share the data, pics and test methodology and then we'll talk again

[Picasso]

They're built into Pangolin software. If you have a copy of QS just go to Settings.

QuickShow and the Flashback 3 that it runs on are limited to 45k from what I have been reading, you also can not export to ilda as i understand it. I am not an owner of QuickShow/Flashback 3 so I guess I shouldnt list specs. But again just as I understand it, Pangolin QuickShow and Flashback 3 are pointless in this testing. But I guess we will wait and see how it was tested.