Official pangolin post: Pangolin holiday special offers

[dsli_jon]

Hi Bill -

Hi guys...

Glad you piped-in.. I had planned to email you, later, and this saves us both valuable time... Additionally, I think it only apt to state this in public, since this thread - and some of the inferrences by 'Buffo', specifically - were made 'in public'...

First off, not sure if you had seen any of the 'clarifying-posts' I had made in-answer to the charges by Adam, but I'd like to repeat a few things I had stated, there - The posts I made - and, I am sure I can, at-least, in-part, speak for Chad, as well - were NOT some sort of 'anti-Pangolin' rhetoric or rant, and I made it very-clear: the comments made were about this post, in context with the general increasing-trend we've see around PL in the past year, that-of more and more and more 'commercial interests' posting links / urls - even outright spam - w/O being 'subscribers' / direct financial-supporters of PL... which, as I am sure you'd agree, generally produces a reaction of since PL has - as you nicely commented - thanks to Robert, always had a much more 'educational / resource' focus, vs blatant-commercialism..

..So, my comments, in support of Chad's posts, may have come-off a bit 'unfair', since, as you've pointed out - and as I commented, very-clearly (...before I got irritated and erased the post... - you, and Pangolin as a whole, certainly have done - and DO - much for the 'enthusiast', and the Industry, as a whole, and I don't for a minute want 'replies', to my posts - taken out of context - to seem like I think, or opin anything otherwise. As I concluded one post-with: Thanks for all you do for this community, and the industry, in-general...

...However, as I 'finished' by saying, I - for one - still support what Chad said, because, as I have been recently-rallying for, I feel we need to see any and all 'commercial-entities', that wish to advertise, here, support PL, financially, as that relates-to my efforts to establish a more 'predictable' support-model for long-term PL-health... I was not 'singling' Pango-out, outside of the context of this specific-thread, nor trying to 'guilt-trip' or put you on some 'spot' - as I had commented to 'White-Light' if I had seen posts by reps from 'Fiesta' or 'Phoenix' or whatever, I would-have posted much the same, as I have so-done for many of our 'asian-seller friends'...

Clearly, as Buffo pointed out, Pango, in-particular, has been exceptionally generous, in many ways, besides, as you highlighted, financially, in the past, with LEMs, software / hardware giveaways, t-shirts, etc, etc, etc.. Absolutely no question or minimizing that... and again, I don't want you to think that was somehow 'overlooked' or ignored in view of my posts... That's all awesome, and - as I would expect from your Co. - you Guys do set a great-example, in this regard. But I don't feel it should be taken as an 'offensive-suggestion' to propose that Pango might at least *consider* also becoming 'blue-members' - not because of a hundred-twenty bucks - because of the extra-extra-great example that sets, and the statement it makes, as-well, for other 'commercial' members, some of whom still don't quite 'get' the value of this place... There are certainly some that do, and they are to be highly-commended...

I also realize - as I clearly had stated in my first (now-erased.. ) post - direct sales and actual revenue to Pango, from PL-members directly, is-but a 'drop in the Atlantic' compared to Pango's sales / customer-base, worldwide. However, I do opin that there is still *value*, to Pango, of the PL-arena... there's an undeniable 'symbiosis', and a pretty-healthy 'relationship', as I see it... there's highly internet-searchable real-world feedback / reviews, beta-testing, people educating others / tips, show-content developers, etc, etc - of how MUCH 'value' this is to Pango, sure, is debatable, and somewhat 'subjective'. But clearly, You appreciate this community, and the 'spirit' of the hobbyist, as you've underscored, and that's great.

..All the more, then, that if you did also-choose to, yet again, 'set the example' for other commercial-entities that join-up and/or currently-reside here, you'd be that much-more the 'hero' to this community, than you already-are. But, in my mind, most-importantly is the example it sets, and the 'statement' it makes to other 'commercial entities' joining or residing, here - Just like those that, unsolicitedly, give 10% of the stuff they might sell here in PL, back to PL / it's Admin, often in-private - how awesome is that, these days? So, it's really awesome to have read your post, and see that you feel, at least in-part, similarly...

Again, I didn't intend to have this turn into some giant 'nuclear-meltdown', but - without 'forced-membership fees', and with the noble-goal of keeping PL 'ad-free' (..at least 'banner'-ads...) if all commercial-entities / members were to at least be 'blued-subscribers', I think it would be one-step closer to solidifying a more stable-foundation for PL's longevity... Which, as I also previously stated, I see its' greatest-value being as a highly-visible platform for EDUCATION, sort of a 'grassroots-university' / 'living document' - where the quality and accuracy of the information-dispensed, can be of the highest-caliber, and is often, 'real-time'... there is undeniably many, many fantastic minds / engineers / creatives, and free-thinkers, here... and a few nuts, too...

Anyhoo, once again, Thanks for what you do, have-done, for PL, and the Industry, and I sincerely hope that my posts, in so-intending to simply be thought-provocative, didn't make you feel 'put on the spot'.. I wouldn't think-so, as, you've certainly tackled much crazier-loons than-I on the ILDA lists...

cheers...
j

[White-Light]

So in your mind, if Pangolin pays their $120 per year, everything is fine then, right?

Now what if Bill decides it's not worth it for him to attend SELEM anymore? Don't you think that alone is worth $120? Because I sure do.

Pangolin already contributes a *great* deal to this community. Brow-beating them over a subscription is like looking a gift horse in the mouth. It makes us all look like ingrateful fools.

Adam

I think you misread my post Adam as we're on the same wavelength. To paraphrase:

I was saying how much Pangolin contribute in other ways and that shouldn't be forgotten, equally they shouldn't therefore be forced to contribute as they already give a lot back to the community through their free advice, lectures etc at LEMs which is worth hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

Compared to other companies on here they give far more back to the community.

If they want to contribute that's a different matter.

[dsli_jon]

Hey WL -

I think you misread my post Adam ...Pangolin contribute in other ways and that shouldn't be forgotten, equally they shouldn't therefore be forced...If they want to...

Sorry for the confusion I caused - he was actually replying to my post, which I erased in protest to the Thorish replies... I've clearly acknowledged and praised Pango's varied contributions, and no one was or is forcing, coercing, brow-beating, guilt-tripping, or pushing *anything* - I applied the opinion to ALL commercial-entities / indie-members with URLs, etc, alike... but like you said, IF they wish to, that's just an extra-bitchin thing, and would make an extra-great statement to all others, in that one-specific regard blah, blah, blah... If not, they certainly will not be any less esteemed or valued or appreciated by this community, I am quite certain of it. Pangolin is way bigger and tougher than me and my bullhorn.

So.... what's the weather like over yonder, today? ...lots of 'snowballs', over here...

ciao
j

[White-Light]

Yeah no problem Jon.

I'm all for helping Rob but I am against the whole enforced contribution thing as the internet to me should be free and especially considering the financial status of many users. That's why I prefer the whole voluntary thing but equally we all know that privately owned servers cost money.

As for the weather, cold and wet so nothing much to write home about.

[dsli_jon]

...but I am against the whole enforced contribution thing...

Oh, it was always to-be a 'voluntary' thing, never 'forced'...the concept was more one-of 'Most of the cookies are Free; pay some, to get more'.. but it seems like that concept is all but dead, anyway - which is fine - that's what the whole 'poll' / community input rally was about... We all talk about it, and pro/con / propose other, etc... I am simply just not in agreement that *nothing* should be done, as I observe that the 'status quo' does nothing to address / plan for the future...

Anyhoo, it seems like what it coming to the surface, is some kind of 'various donate-options panel' of some sort, ie: One time: [] $1.00 [] $5.00 [] $10. [] $20. etc, etc... Monthly / Annually: [] $1.00/$12. [] $5.00/$60. []$10./$120. etc etc... And an ever-present "Supportometer" so everyone knows where PL-stands, etc.. Then, something to 'address' commercial-entities / advertisers, etc, TBD... But, in any case, avoiding 'obligatory' pay-walls, banner ads, and/or 'wikipedia-style fundraisers' seems to be where Herr Admin is headed... we'll hafta-see...

Stay warm!

cheers..
j

[csshih]

FYI I'd like to put this into perspective.

I advertise and sell flashlights on another forum, (candlepowerforums). I'm 19. I've been in business for a year(well, almost) and have operated out of my dorm.

Now, for posting/advertising privileges in their market, I pay 125$ every 2 months because I sell commercially, not as a individual. Companies still post on the forum even though they have to pay because it gives them exposure - and don't anyone dare say this forum does not give exposure to pangolin.

Ah, I just had a look at the "paid subscriptions" page. one month, 10$. "corporate benefactor, 100$"

Alright, 10$ for normal people, 100$ for corporations.
..wait.

100$?

I pay 3/5th of that for another forum. seriously? OK fine, this forum is smaller but just how many people are paying that cost?

I'd post the paid subscriptions page from candlepowerforums but It's down again.
I think I was 16 when I first started contributing to that forum.
Hell, I didn't even have a credit card, I had to walk a couple miles to safeway to buy one of those prepaid card things to contribute.
Why? Because I loved the hobby and the forum, I loved spending many hours and interacting with the community. hell - now I realize I haven't donated to this forum.. that's going to change now.

What I want to say is.. if a college student can afford to pay a forum 125$ every 2 months to advertise his wares, can a company with multiple employees, who's boasted as being the "world leader in software and systems for laser display..with over 16,000 users", what, they really can't afford a little monthly contribution to keep this place running? and it's not just to keep it running - what, is our admin's time worth nothing? is he not allowed to profit a little bit from his hard work and effort?
I'm sorry, Spec, for having to drag this up again, but have you seen this thread? How much better do you think he's doing now? Things may not be as nice where spec's at - but I'm in no position to speak for him. I'll leave it at that.

Have you seen the other laserist forum?! I can't even count how many ads there are on that damn site, and there's even a donation goal counter - which is exceeded every month, even as I have to scroll down a page on my 1080p screen to get past the junk on the page. Even then, it goes down for "upgrades" almost daily. This forum runs the same software. Have we seen anything remotely close to that *other* forum I'm talking about?

My personal ramblings which are probably incoherent.

Craig

[gottaluvlasers]

Craig-

You make a nice point. However, what some people don't seem to put into perspective is that value and "donations" don't necessarily need to be in a monetary fashion. Yes, of course- money is great. But Bill and Pangolin as a whole have gone WELL above and beyond supporting this forum, its members and the hobbyist/professional community as a whole. Many examples were given above and if you research specific examples or even do some rough math in your head you will see that what Pangolin has and still does translates into THOUSANDS of dollars of "donations."

There are MANY members of this forum that have benefited SIGNIFICANTLY due to the generosity and professional integrity of Bill and Pangolin. Its not *always* about just cash. Yes, in aperfect world everyone would donate their fair share and admin would be rollin in a Bentley. But, obviously- this isnt the worl we live in. Pangolin has and im sure will continue to pony up some cash when directly asked. I believe (although i may be incorrect) that Pangolin HAS donated money before when directly asked. I think Bill confirmed that above ((typing on my phone and scrolling back up for some reason keeps freezing my screen).

My personal opinion is that "donations" can havve many different definitons. I donate a cash amount everymonth. I see the value and need to do that for CT. Lasers. Other companies provide other value and "donations" in other forms perhaps.

To be quite honest, MY problem is with the Chinese companies that come here to advertise and dont give a nickel anytime, anywhere. Nor do they provide ANY sort of value to the forum other than providing cheap ways for people to buy cheap equipment. But,t hats a different thread for a different time...

-Marc

[Admin]

This whole thing is absurd. Completely unbelievably absurd.

So you're saying that, now that PL has become a popular place, Pangolin needs to pay up or else? That is, frankly, bullshit Jon. That's not the spirit Rob had when he founded this place.

Actually, going through the deletion history the only person that even implied that was you, right there. Come to think of it all the slippery slope, "it follows that" Reductio Ad Absurdum, and Selective Observation arguments are put out there by you. No one was attacking Pangolin the entity or Bill the person *or* downplaying what they do. You assumed it and then built a supporting "Fuck you by four" around the idea. Chad had an opinion and voiced it. Jon had an opinion and voiced it using his patented flurry of emoticons and text markup. You had an opinion and started attacking people.

Now *That* is, frankly, bullshit Buffo.

Here, I got one for you: "If PL was a blender... It would follow that Flying spaghetti monster illuminati dominoes the home game."

Another?

As to the spirit I had when I founded this place? How would you know? Were you there, in my head, when I started this little corner of tEh instablags? - See what I did there? I just invoked a logical fallacy out of thin air! This is fitting given the fact your replies here do the exact same shit.

Here, use my fork: http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/s...arguments.html

You owe Jon a fucking apology.

If you believe, as your actions and words plainly express, that berating people into submission and manufacturing supporting data out of thin air to solidify your point all at the expense of others is civil behavior then I have to say that I have lost quite a lot of respect for you. And let's make something clear here; It's up to you to determine what value that has to you, if any. Given your actions in this thread I am past the point of caring if what I say has value to you.

Of all the people I would expect this behavior from: You were not one of them. I am disappointed, and again; it's up to you to determine if that means a damn thing.

Truth time kiddos:

The larger PL gets the more I am forced to treat it like a corporate entity and with that brings questions as to it's sustainability.

Furthermore - I have no way of determining how many people are supporting the site because they are supporting the site, or supporting me because of some serious shit that has happened over the years. Either way: It's not kosher and PL as an entity should be able to stand on it's own merit to members that create value and members that derive value. The interchange between the two and the numerous shades of grey therein is where it gets complicated.

Jon started the other thread of his own volition after seeing the amount of work that goes into this place. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested in the outcome of that thread. Hell, we've had a number of conversations where he almost convinced me that what I do here has value though I suppose it's entirely possible that he's just buying more time until I snap and disable emoticons.

My goal is simple: Make PL into a viable self sustaining entity where progress is made and people are brought into the fold of "laser-nerdery" because, lets be honest, the more people that get involved in the hobby/industry, the better. It's a win win.

In a few short years we have seen many changes. Shit, The cost of blue went from $5000/w to $50 in quantities of one. Galvo manufacturers out of China have appeared and produce a pretty good product for what can only be classified as a pittance in comparison *and* they are responsive to issues with their products.

All this leads to more people, more changes, and more growing pains.

Now what I hear is that PL should stay exactly the same as it was when I first hit the shell script to populate the original phpbb database when there were 7 users.

Let's get right down to it:

I am getting older. I have grey hair appearing on the side of my head and my hairline is receding unevenly. Life is wildly dynamic and PL currently makes enough to keep it alive and buy me some food. This is preferable to the alternative.

However if some wingnut attorney sends a nasty-o-gram, I have to respond to it. Those responses are expensive and time consuming. The overage per month that PL has would not even cover one single hour of an attorneys time. This place almost died when a certain manufacturer decided PL was on it's list of things to wreck that month. This is not an ideal operating condition. And lets be honest here - If this site can draw attorneys, regardless of the legal merit to their arguments, then this place is large enough to warrant a serious second thought as to how it operates. Don't even get me started on the half dozen times I've had people threaten me with legal action because the contents of a thread didn't paint the picture they wanted. Apparently quoting safe-harbor laws only makes them threaten harder.

Conversely what if this becomes too much and I need to go or I get sick or something? I am a human being and feeling my own mortality all to well these days. Spare me the "Ohh, X will gladly take over!" thing. Everyone has an angle, myself included. I like to think that I, at the very least, enumerate it plainly.

What if I really think this place needs to go colo on decent hardware?

And don't even get me started on other avenues of funding - I went through the introductory stages of starting a webstore and a large percentage of the manufacturers who operate here already were not interested in giving up a few percent because they haven't had to in the past and that the "new webstore" doesn't open up any new profitable avenues for them, it just takes a percentage out of their pocket and fuck how convenient it would be for people to have everything that doesn't suck under one roof. Furthermore I think it would be really bad form and generally a dick move to eat into what Marc does given he is the only corporate benefactor here and has been surprisingly cool about it.

Program banner ads are a no go, when I got super desperate and tried that I was exactly one RCH away from getting booted from the network for click-fraud thanks to a number of you trying to be helpful by gaming the system. That leaves industry specific banner/rotating ads - of which a couple pointer manufacturers have contacted me about. Ohh yea... Target audience right here and I like to think that actively refusing to run those ads says a lot about my character *regardless* of my hatred of banner ads.

I am under no illusions that PL is/could be an adequate substitute for a day job that hasn't materialized yet at the same time I spend a number of hours per week that I don't keep track of here keeping things operational and dealing with server processes and people that explode like a pressure cooker with a broken blow off valve. If shit breaks at 2am, I'm here. If I get a "database took a shotgun to the face" error on my phone - I pull over on the side of the road and see what I can do with that teensy little keyboard. You will also note that I don't bitch about it and I don't start bi-weekly threads talking about how awesome I am for dealing with it.

If there is a balance point: I'm not sure where it is and for every person that says "yea, there is value in what you do" there is another one who disagrees.

I would like to take a moment to thank Bill for sending me a Private message about this thread and to ask questions about whats going on and to Jon for asking in person. They are the only ones who even attempted to solicit my opinion instead of assuming it. Kudos.

[buffo]

Chad had an opinion and voiced it. Jon had an opinion and voiced it using his patented flurry of emoticons and text markup. You had an opinion and started attacking people.

Wrong. There is a deleted post in there from Jon that you (and apparently many others) did not see. My "attack", if you want to call it that, was in response to his comments in that post, not to mention several comments he made to me in PM's over the issue.

As to the spirit I had when I founded this place? How would you know?

Oh, I don't know... Maybe, just fucking maybe, in the 6 years I've known you, I might have picked up just a hint of your ideology? Jesus christ dude, wake up. You have posted your ideals on the forums numerous times. It's not like it's a secret.

You owe Jon a fucking apology.

No, Jon owes Bill an apology.

If you believe, as your actions and words plainly express, that berating people into submission and manufacturing supporting data out of thin air to solidify your point all at the expense of others is civil behavior

What the hell are you smoking, Rob? I didn't manufacture anything. Bill himself has stated publicly the same sales numbers that I posted.
As for berating people into submission: I wasn't the one who tried to berate Bill into donating. That was Jon's idea.

Adam

[gottaluvlasers]

I *PERSONALLY* think that this thread is getting WAY too "he said she said" and WAY too personal. I think that at this point, we just leave this topic alone. If there are any further arguments, personal or otherwise, keep it in a PM or hell- make a phone call.

Just my opinion. Take it for what its worth.

-Marc