Exporting completed laser shows to other software - PROBLEM!

[liteglow]

Ok, I did ask Peter Mayer (programmer of Mamba) about sharing complete show !

After only 2minute I did have a reply

answer:

Hi,
no, there is no way. You can only save ILDA frames (at a loss of color information). But there is no interchange format for show information.

Greetings
Peter


soh.. it`s final then....

[JimBo]

What is the "Create releasable show" option for then?
Just a show for other Mamba users?

Jim

ps. I wasn't having a dig at Pangolin, if I could afford it I would probably buy it, if only as a statement of status.

[buffo]

The "Create Releasable Show" option will generate two files: An ilda frameset and the .mrs file that contains all the timing information. (If you have a musical soundtrack loaded, it will be saved as a third file.)

The ilda file contains all the frames needed to re-create the show, but if you just play that file you won't have the correct timing or frame repeats. (But you *WILL* have all the effects rendered correctly.)

The problem is that no other software package supports the .mrs file format, so I don't see how you can export shows to Pangolin, or any other software for that matter. (Grrrr....)

There's got to be a way around this problem...

Adam

[LASER-AD]

Well Buffo, Thanks for your Opinion, Its not mine at all. To each his own. I dont know what Yadda has or has'nt, because we have never seen this system at all. It has never come out .... But even if it did come out..The hardware is just one part of the equation. I really challenge anyone to provide a better interface that has been provided by showtime and lasershow designer. Hell yes i'm biased, because i have some of my ideas in there. Thats the point.. Pangolin is very open to suggestions, and if it makes sense, it usually makes it into software.

I dont want a Piss and Vinegar fight with you or anyone else. If thats how it is, i too will just continue on my way.I am not in this industry as a hobbiest, but as a professional. I only brought up my point as MY opinion..with my experience over the many yrs of use. I'm Not slagging anyone off or putting down any other system AT ALL... Sorry, thats not my way.

Have a nice day...

[JimBo]

Maybe there is some 3rd party software around that will do the conversion (like there is for audio files, mp3/wav/wma/cda etc..)
I do seem to remember reading one of the threads about sopftware that reads the ilda format dropping one of the bits or something.

Jimbo

[jeejeedr]

The "Create Releasable Show" option will generate two files: An ilda frameset and the .mrs file that contains all the timing information. (If you have a musical soundtrack loaded, it will be saved as a third file.)

The ilda file contains all the frames needed to re-create the show, but if you just play that file you won't have the correct timing or frame repeats. (But you *WILL* have all the effects rendered correctly.)

The problem is that no other software package supports the .mrs file format, so I don't see how you can export shows to Pangolin, or any other software for that matter. (Grrrr....)

There's got to be a way around this problem...

Adam

I think there is. A bit technical, a bit fooling around, but it could work.
Mamba supports 3rd-party dll's that are conform a specific interface specification. I'm building (very slow) my own USB DAC and I'm writing my own Mamba driver. In my test dll I'm receiving all points as Mamba sends them to me.
So If you write a dummy driver and instead of outputting the points to a DAC, you write them to a file, then you have an ILD with the complete show, including timings (fixed once saved) and effects. As you can specify the speed of output (eg 60kpps) you know at what speed to replay the recorded file. If you replay the recordd file at the same speed as it was recorded, you should have the same output, regardless of the software you use for playback.

[buffo]

I dont want a Piss and Vinegar fight with you or anyone else.

Agreed. Perhaps I was a bit harsh in my last reply. I apologize if I've put you on the defensive. ops: I did not mean to direct my anger with Bill towards you. (See Below)

I dont know what Yadda has or has'nt, because we have never seen this system at all. It has never come out

Actually, we have seen it. Some of us anyway. Spec had a beta version of the 8-bit unit, and Yadda posted a few links to some shows that he'd done in Las Vegas using the beta version of the 16-bit board.

Note also that Yadda's entire effort was merely designed to build a system that would be better for *his* laser business. He honestly *never* intended it to be a retail product, and had no plans to market it. He only posted about it here on PL because he figured that the geeks here would be interested in his project. (Which we were!) That turned into a bit of a problem for him, because many members here were so impressed with his work that we started begging him to get a few more boards made so some of us hobbyists could play with one.

But Yadda's board will never "come out" in the retail sense, because it was never intended to be a retail product. (Some of us were hoping that a company - maybe Pangolin, maybe someone else - would incorporate the improvements Yadda came up with into a new and improved DAC, but admittedly that was a long shot.)

The hardware is just one part of the equation. I really challenge anyone to provide a better interface that has been provided by showtime and lasershow designer.

I agree that Yadda's software interface was most likely far less user-friendly than Pangolin's. (Or anyone else's, for that matter.) I did not get a chance to view it first hand, but I'm certain that it was nowhere near as polished as Lasershow Designer. But remember that Yadda's project was meant to address hardware limitations inherent in the way Pangolin does things, not to improve the user interface. In fact, he admitted to using LSD for the show design, and often extolled the virtues of the software in his posts.

Pangolin is very open to suggestions, and if it makes sense, it usually makes it into software.

Well, based on Bill's posts here on PL, that isn't always true. Yadda pointed out some limits of the *hardware* that really didn't NEED to be there anymore, and Bill seemed to get defensive before even considering what Yadda was proposing. Then Yadda suggested some improvements that would compensate for the inherent timing variability in solid state laser blanking circuits, and Bill just rejected the idea out of hand with a really lame retort. ("It's the laser manufacturers fault! It's not our responsibility!") Nevermind the fact that Yadda had a simple solution that would have made it a lot easier to interface Pangolin hardware with a wider variety of lasers. You really ought to go back and read some of the stuff Bill wrote - both to Yadda and to some of the other members here on the board. It was very dissapointing to hear the president of a company spouting off like that to someone that was both an avid user of the Pangolin product and also quite familiar with the engineering principles involved...

The end result is that Yadda is currently running his custom board and enjoying the benefits he's come up with, and the rest of the Pangolin community is not. Furthermore, the majority of the Pangolin community likely will never learn of Yadda's work.

Ok - it's not the end of the world. Pangolin is still an exceptional product, and likely always will be. And yes, it will probably remain out of reach (financially) for all but the professionals in the laser business. But in the mean time the rest of us here at PL have lost Yadda's input on a host of other topics, not to mention any hope of ever getting our hands on one of Yadda's boards.

Now, it may be that on the software side, Pangolin is more open to suggestions. Indeed, you stated that some of your own suggestions have been incorporated into the software. But remember that Yadda was proposing a new hardware solution. Perhaps that is why Bill got so defensive. (Though that still doesn't make it a valid excuse for his behavior.)

Eh, I don't know. Maybe I'm being overly defensive myself. I went back and re-read some of those messages myself, and to my surprise the most vitriolic posts were not directed at Yadda, but rather to another member that had proposed a software solution to the scanner-safety problem. But I do know that both of them have stopped visiting the forums here.

I am not in this industry as a hobbiest, but as a professional.

Indeed you are. And as a professional, I respect your opinions and value your contributions here. I'm not attacking you, or the Pangolin community at large. And I don't begrudge you for spending the money you have to purchase the best tools you can to design and present your laser shows. However, Yadda was also a professional, and not only was he doing lots of shows, but he was working to make the hardware better. I just feel that he should have been treated better by Bill.

On the other hand, you have said several times that you do not put down other systems, and I applaud you for that. (There are certainly a few sub-standard software and DAC solutions out there that would be easy targets for ridicule when compared to a full-blown Pangolin setup - my Alphalite setup being prime among them!) And surely you recognise that for every professional like yourself that is out there doing shows on a regular basis, there are many other hobbyist laserists that are simply doing it for their own enjoyment. Some of those hobbyists may one day join your ranks, but likely most will not. Still, if people don't work together to build a solid hobyist community, where will the next generation of professional laserists come from? You have volunteered your time in order to participate in the discussions here, and the forum is a better place because of it.

And, in closing, I apologize again if my bile towards Bill has spilled over towards you; that was *absolutely* not my intent.

Adam

[buffo]

I think there is. A bit technical, a bit fooling around, but it could work.
<snip>
So If you write a dummy driver and instead of outputting the points to a DAC, you write them to a file, then you have an ILD with the complete show, including timings (fixed once saved) and effects. As you can specify the speed of output (eg 60kpps) you know at what speed to replay the recorded file. If you replay the recordd file at the same speed as it was recorded, you should have the same output, regardless of the software you use for playback.

OUCH! Write your own dummy driver for Mamba? That's beyond my abilities. I agree that it sounds plausible though....

It is really quite surprising to me that the software doesn't already have this feature though. As others have said, Pangolin supports it. Based on what we know of the process, it shouldn't be any more difficult than outputting the show to a DAC, so why not build the capability into the software?

Adam

[jeejeedr]

I think there is. A bit technical, a bit fooling around, but it could work.
<snip>
So If you write a dummy driver and instead of outputting the points to a DAC, you write them to a file, then you have an ILD with the complete show, including timings (fixed once saved) and effects. As you can specify the speed of output (eg 60kpps) you know at what speed to replay the recorded file. If you replay the recordd file at the same speed as it was recorded, you should have the same output, regardless of the software you use for playback.

OUCH! Write your own dummy driver for Mamba? That's beyond my abilities. I agree that it sounds plausible though....

It is really quite surprising to me that the software doesn't already have this feature though. As others have said, Pangolin supports it. Based on what we know of the process, it shouldn't be any more difficult than outputting the show to a DAC, so why not build the capability into the software?

Adam

It's the cost. As a software engineer, I know what it takes to implement certain features. I may seem almost no effort to the outside world, but depending on the amount of customers, it can have a considerable cost anyway. Mamba is not one of the most widely sold software in the world, unlike microsoft's. Consider that together with the price they ask for a license and the price they have to pay a developer per hour and you'll see that for each minor change they have to sell some more licenses. So if there is something missing and they don't see it as something that is needed to keep custumors, the change is low they would implement it. If however they do major modifications, it could be cost effective enough to do the change at the same time.
So I suggest to email Peter at Medialas with a request for change and he might consider it when they do some other mods.

[liteglow]

Peter at mediaLas is a VERY helpful guy
But as I did understand, the next update of Mamba will be later somtime... not this month (year?)
But I think he always will like to hear any changes that can be done