Kryo Man - WTF?

[mixedgas]

[QUOTE=buffo;233488]For the past two years we've had a laser safety expert put on a 1-day training class the day after SELEM ends. In 2010 it was Casey Stack doing a general laser safety class, and in 2011 it was Greg Makhov doing the ILDA Laser Safety Officer training. In both classes it was recommended that operators install a cheap video camera connected to a computer in the venue before each show. The purpose of the camera is to capture the entire show to PROVE that beams never went into the audience. That way if a patron tries to file suit later on (claiming a laser eye injury), you have video evidence to back up your claims that such an injury could not have been caused by your projectors, because the beams never went into the crowd.

end quote,


Who was it a while a go... Hugo? That got caught in a mess because a girl got a eye injury at a major show, and it ended up being a high power pointer? I think he was saved by someone finding video of the pointer in use, but it was a huge and expensive legal mess...

Steve

[colouredmirrorball]

For the past two years we've had a laser safety expert put on a 1-day training class the day after SELEM ends. In 2010 it was Casey Stack doing a general laser safety class, and in 2011 it was Greg Makhov doing the ILDA Laser Safety Officer training. In both classes it was recommended that operators install a cheap video camera connected to a computer in the venue before each show. The purpose of the camera is to capture the entire show to PROVE that beams never went into the audience. That way if a patron tries to file suit later on (claiming a laser eye injury), you have video evidence to back up your claims that such an injury could not have been caused by your projectors, because the beams never went into the crowd.

Who was it a while a go... Hugo? That got caught in a mess because a girl got a eye injury at a major show, and it ended up being a high power pointer? I think he was saved by someone finding video of the pointer in use, but it was a huge and expensive legal mess...

Steve

That was the Tomorrowland incident in Belgium I believe.

What if something like that happens on a show? You are completely safe, but some fucktard swings a few ZOMG MULTIPLE MEGAWATT BLEU LAZOR THAT CAN POP BALL00NS around, and people get injured... I've seen that happen numerous times, and there is nothing you can do about it, but you get the blame anyway.

[mixedgas]

Quote:
What if something like that happens on a show? You are completely safe, but some fucktard swings a few ZOMG MULTIPLE MEGAWATT BLEU LAZOR THAT CAN POP BALL00NS around, and people get injured... I've seen that happen numerous times, and there is nothing you can do about it, but you get the blame anyway.
Endquote..

Are you sure your not channeling ElectroFreak?

Steve

[colouredmirrorball]

Last time I checked I wasn't, but of course that's been a while and you never know what can happen in the mean time. Maybe I should check again, but how do you know if you are?

[buffo]

What if something like that happens on a show? You are completely safe, but some fucktard swings a few ZOMG MULTIPLE MEGAWATT BLEU LAZOR THAT CAN POP BALL00NS around, and people get injured...

This was one of the scenarios that both Greg and Casey mentioned in their respective classes. The idea is that unless you have PROOF that your lasers never entered the crowd, it's basically your word against the plaintiff's. But with a video of the entire show AND a recording of the position of the scanners, you could definitely show that your lasers did not illuminate the crowd. The video recording in particular might even capture a few views of the idiot in the audience who was swinging an Arctic Spyder III around...

Bottom line: If I was doing larger shows night after night, I'd probably invest in a few cheap cameras just to cover my ass.

Adam

[colouredmirrorball]

This was one of the scenarios that both Greg and Casey mentioned in their respective classes. The idea is that unless you have PROOF that your lasers never entered the crowd, it's basically your word against the plaintiff's. But with a video of the entire show AND a recording of the position of the scanners, you could definitely show that your lasers did not illuminate the crowd. The video recording in particular might even capture a few views of the idiot in the audience who was swinging an Arctic Spyder III around...

Bottom line: If I was doing larger shows night after night, I'd probably invest in a few cheap cameras just to cover my ass.

Adam

Yes, but this is Europe. Audience scanning happens a lot. That makes it a lot more complicated, from a juridic point of view. You would need to prove that 1) your lasers are safe and 2) eye damage is caused by pointers. For companies like LaserImage, point 1 should be rather easy, but how are you ever going to prove point 2? Also if you're not LaserImage but, say, you are a club owner who bought the newest fancy Chinese projector, and assuming it's safe, while it is not? Then what?
And if you are that guy who bought a few Laserworlds and let them run continuously during the whole event (like someone in my surroundings does) and you end up blinding someone, wouldn't it be much easier to blame it on pointers?

[buffo]

I admit that the situation in Europe is more complex, and thus more risky for a legitimate laser operator. Because most European laserists normally perform crowd-scanning shows, it puts the burden of proof more squarely on their shoulders. Basically by doing a crowd-scannning show, you are already admitting to exposing people to laser light levels above the MPE. Here in the US, that would be enough to prove gross negligence, and the case would probably end right there. But because there is some acceptance for the 10X MPE standard in other places, you might have a case to argue in Europe. Still, it's going to be a difficult battle. If you don't have additional evidence, you might still lose even if you really didn't cause the injury.

If I were a professional laserist in Europe who was performing audience-scanning shows routinely, I would definitely record the position feedback of all scanners to a hard drive for every show. I'd also have video of the pre-show irradiance measurements for all projectors. Then I'd make sure that I had extensive pictures, diagrams, and/or video of the venue layout and projector locations so that I could re-create everything at a future time if needed. I'd also have at least one (if not two or more) video cameras placed in the audience to capture the show from the perspective of someone in the crowd. (Probably at the back of the room to capture everything.)

Would all that be enough to prove my innocence in the case of someone suing me over an alleged eye injury? I think so. In fact, I think that the very fact that such extensive records exist would be enough to deter someone from going forward with a lawsuit in the first place, once they learned I had all this evidence. Note that it would also be prudent to hang signs in the venue banning laser pointers. And you would need to inform the staff at the venue to remove anyone who was using a pointer at the show.

Regarding the proof in court that the pointer caused the injury, that's not a problem. First, it's a laser, and the whole premise of the lawsuit is that lasers can cause eye injury, so the plaintiff has already made that assertion for you. Second, unlike your projectors, it's a static beam, and at very close range. (Much closer than your projectors.) So it's easy to show that the hazard is present, under worse conditions than those your projector creates, and that it's all beyond your control.

But most importantly, remember that it's not up to you as the defendant to prove who caused the injury. You job is simply to prove that YOU didn't cause the injury with YOUR lasers. Beyond that, you have no further obligations. You can offer the idea of a rogue laser pointer as an alternate cause of the injury, but you don't need to PROVE it. Let the plaintiff worry about who he's going to sue next.

Adam

[norty303]

Basically by doing a crowd-scannning show, you are already admitting to exposing people to laser light levels above the MPE.

How so? I crowd scan, and do it within MPE, I'm not admitting anything like you state.

[buffo]

Norty, you are one of the exceptions, not the rule. Many operators do not measure the MPE prior to a show.

Furthermore, at least here in the US, the MPE is a paltry 2.5 mw/cm squared (based on a .25 second exposure). At that irradiance level, the beam is quite dim, and audience scanning really doesn't make sense. That was the main reason behind ILDA's push to adopt the 10x MPE standard, but so far that hasn't gained any traction. Nevertheless, in Europe it's quite common to crowd-scan with 500 mw to 1 watt projectors. Doing a little math shows that unless the beam is a good bit larger than 10 cm in diameter (highly unlikely), that will put the audience above the MPE. Thus my statement.

Note also that many people use the simplified MPE for scanning shows (Basically you multiply the static beam MPE by 4 to account for the shorter pulse duration of scanned effects). And yes, this is allowed, provided you also go through your entire collection of frames and verify that there are no hot spots or multi-point corners in the artwork that will be scanned through the audience, and that the image is never held in the same place for more than .25 seconds. How many operators forget about this crucial second step? And if you don't do the second step, then you're back to 2.5 mw/cm squared. (Instead of 10.)

Mind you, I'm not saying that you are guilty of this, Norty. You've always seemed like a straight shooter to me. But I've read accounts from far too many operators who simply hang a 500 mw projector on a truss and go to town. That's not the way it's supposed to be done, and doing so here in the US would be criminally negligent, even if you can get away with it in Germany, or the Netherlands, or somewhere else.

Anyway, my point was that many crowd-scanning shows in Europe have irradiance levels well above 2.5 mw/cm squared, or even 10 mw/cm squared (for the reasons stated above), and that the people doing those shows are being negligent by willfully violating the accepted standard.

I will acknowledge that if a trained operator has taken the appropriate steps to both measure his equipment and categorize his show content to ensure the MPE is never exceeded, then such a crowd-scanning show would not be negligent. But it is my opinion that this is far less common than one would expect.

To give some idea as to just how uncommon it is, I've actually seen this standard violated at an ILDA conference lase-off that was open to the general public - TWICE! These were professionals - leaders in the industry - and they disregarded the rules in the interest of putting on a more impressive show. Sigh...

Adam

[LELS]

Paris Hilton + Kyromans 5mW blues... eyes rolling bigtime.