Illegal USA Laser System Sales

[planters]

QUOTE] If you are concerned about spending $350 to become legally licensed in Texas this may be the wrong hobby to jump into. Lasers are nothing but money pits and that $350 is one of the few methods of keeping high powered laser systems from uneducated and potentially harmful laser operators from entering the public. Would you want an unlicensed driver on the road driving next to you? Would you want unlicensed teachers in the classroom with your kids? Would you want some unlicensed rich kid pulling out a 10w yag at Chuckie Cheese for his friends 16 birthday party? The government has all the right in the world to be involved with potential radiation exposure products of any size as it is for the general good of the public. A pain sometimes, of course.

[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry I have to agree with opcom. A fee does not resolve the problem, if there is one, regarding access to these devices. $350 is nothing if I can afford a 10W YAG. There will always be risks with technology. I don't want to resurrect the whole "what's riskier, a firecracker or a laser" it depends. But, THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT HAVE RIGHTS, THE PEOPLE HAVE RIGHTS. Why not $700? $7,000 ? OK, people don't neeeed lasers. Let's just ban them. OK? Most people wouldn't care. Any esoteric interest or any road less traveled could be shut down if the government, wields its power, disregarding its constitutional limits and is only held in check by popular opinion. They should stay out of this.

[DanG]

I think the point guys is that they charge the fee to cover the costs associated with enforcing the standard. CDRH would have a lot more resources to crack down on dangerous shows and illegal importers if it did the same.

[planters]

I'm not usually this irascible, but this one is pushing the button so I'll just say it. Enforcing the standard? With all the dangerous things we can do. Motorcycles, planes, chemicals, high voltage, guns etc I just don't understand the"illegal importers of a 100 mw laser. This seems like helmet laws for tricycles. The reason I suspect the corruption underlying this fee is that the CDRH is a division of the FDA. Why should TX have a fee for a national agency.

[DanG]

The state of Texas has a fee because like New York, Arizona, Florida and a handful of other states who take laser safety pretty seriously they have their own state laws regarding high powered laser use. All of that keys off of the national standard of course to some extent or another but that is beside the point.

The problem is not 100mW... the problem is 100mW which runs hot at 200mW + 200-300% IR over spec. The problem is a 500mW blue system that can easily start a fire if one is not careful with it. The problem is a $400 1W RGB Chinese system which lacks even basic safety features.

Poll 100,000 people and ask them to explain the practical implications of photochemical effects from lasers in the blue wavelengths way below thermal MPE and you will get 99,998 blank looks.

The problem is the user who thinks that a high powered laser is just a 'disco' light and starts doing crazy things with it because they either don't know any better or don't think the potential for adverse events is real.

They have to set the standard somewhere and I for one am glad there is one. Remember, if someone or God forbid a group of people get hurt and the media gets ahold of it, the story is not going to be "Prom Kids Harmed By Unlawfully Imported Laser Used By An Untrained Operator," It's going to be "High School Students Partially Blinded By Laser Light Show." Then we're all in for it.

The better we can keep the safety record across the industry, the better it is for everyone, IMHO.

[flecom]

...I would say the deeper pockets comes in handy when you need an FDA approved laser system...

too bad the FDA does not "approve" laser systems

...if someone or God forbid a group of people get hurt and the media gets ahold of it, the story is not going to be "Prom Kids Harmed By Unlawfully Imported Laser Used By An Untrained Operator," It's going to be "High School Students Partially Blinded By Laser Light Show." Then we're all in for it...

You know, I keep hearing that, but I don't know if that would really happen, after all motorcycles will probably kill you, loud concerts will cause hearing damage, drug use will shorten your life, yet many people do all three of those things every day... if some dee dee dee gets a 300mw chinese wail and flail projector whats the odds of 1) anyone getting hurt 2) it affecting peoples opinion of "oooo its pretty"

people scan with shit-tons of power in europe all the time (look at that dudes videos that cause a shit storm every time he posts one here) and I have not seen a body count... except for the russia incident...

ask 100000 people about the russia incident and 99998 will also give you blank looks...

not that I don't take safety extremely seriously mind you, but I think sometimes we get a little carried away

[gottaluvlasers]

Dan-

I am going to have to go against the grain with you on this one. Fees for *HOBBYISTS* are just ridiculous. period. Or wait, let me rephrase this- fees for Lasers used in ones *home* is ridiculous. Even a $1 tax. In my opinion this poses ZERO value other than to collect an extra few dollars from people for no reason. Sorry. But if "Joe X" wants to buy even a 50 watt (exaggerating for emphasis) yag to mess around with in the privacy of his/her own home, i dont think ANY government has the right to "tax" this use. The second a Laser (of any power) is brought out in *public* for a dsiplay or entertainment use, THEN perhaps a fee is more justifiable.

NY (as far as i know) does not pose any sort of fee for a private sale of a laser in the privacy of ones home. The licensing is part of code Rule 50 which is part of the Department of Labor. If one buys a laser to learn with and experiment with in the privacy of their private dwelling, than there is *NO* "Labor" involved and therefore no fee required.

I feel that this $350 fee is simply a way for a state to make a few extra dollars for no reason what so ever. Again, i am saying that i do not agree with the fee for *PRIVATE* use of a laser system in ones private home. NOT the public use of a Laser system, in which i understand why the fee is imposed.

-Marc

[DanG]

A fair point Frank but I would make two counters:

1) While the FDA does not "approve" lasers as they do drugs, they do approve of their entry into US commerce via approval of the manufacturer's product report.While of course I agree that they do not typically test models before sale as would normally be done in again say a drug approval process, they do careful review detailed product reports to ensure that manufacturers are doing things safety and approve the filing... when then approves the laser for introduction into commerce. That level of granularity more than most people care about but since the letter that comes from FDA both means and literally says "approved," I think that calling something FDA approved is a fair if not perfectly accurate shorthand.

Secondly, a number of the shows in Europe carefully control their irradiance levels to avoid practically unsafe exposures... I say practically rather than academically because I am not going to sit here and say that everyone follows MPE. That said, a large and growing number of people do try to stick to MPE rules and in any case, without someone having the experience to quantify and mitigate the hazard how would an end user ever know what is safe and what is not?.

A a followup to that, a number of people are somewhat quietly but realistically concerned that many of these shows are actually causing subtle injuries which will show up later in life or may later be exacerbated by other factors. Occult injuries I believe they are called which are not immediately obvious and are corrected for by the brain or not severe enough yet to cause trouble. The FDA's perspective is that an occult injury is still an injury and that seems reasonable to me. However, as you say, there are reasonably few "bodies" so who am I to say for sure?

[DanG]

Marc,

I was not saying otherwise... I seem to have missed the sub-topic of public vs. private. I am kind of a libertarian in that you should be able to do pretty much whatever you want in your home free of government intrusion so I am with you there. However, I cannot think of a hobbyist who only ever uses a laser in their house...LEM's come immediately to mind. Also, for strictly home use many people feel that a variance may not be required which would get around the issue entirely.

It is a slippery slope though because, as I say, I can't think of a single person who exclusively uses lasers in their house. If that is the case, or the significant majority of the cases, and assuming that it would be unlikely that anyone would ever know that a laser used strictly in your house even existed, why not just make the rule cover everything to keep it simple and easily understood? Part of the reason that the CDRH rules are hard to understand is because they try to cover WAY too many If/Then's...

[mixedgas]

X-Laser wrote:

"Secondly, a number of the shows in Europe carefully control their irradiance levels to avoid practically unsafe exposures... I say practically rather than academically because I am not going to sit here and say that everyone follows MPE. That said, a large and growing number of people do try to stick to MPE rules and in any case, without someone having the experience to quantify and mitigate the hazard how would an end user ever know what is safe and what is not?. "

Once upon at time at a ILDA conference in Canada, the artistic director of a certain large German laser show company explained some things to me, and the difference between the US and German safety systems was night and day. Compliance was a attitude of the staff from the start, not just a annoying detail like it is in the US. It is a social attitude toward safety. As well as a good dose of fear for the consequences of what happens if you make a mistake and injure someone, which would be a assult charge.

What zee Germans keep a little Geheim (secret) is that big fixed installs and certain other shows get inspected by a third party for safety and a fee is paid to the inspecting part, which is a non-state entity. It is NOT just any operator can go blasting away. The details are held to a privilaged few, and you can spend hours trolling LaserFreak.de looking for the details, and learn almost nothing, except once or twice a year they have a private approval course held.


So those big spectacular German shows have a built in safety element, and have had it for a long time. But how to get that is closely held, so as not to have the explosion of laser boxes we have had in the states. Its very much like a Guild in Germany.

Many of those shows are approved by TUV, the German equal to UL or CSA, and each effect is calculated, if not measured.

I once had a German ADAT tape in my hands. On it was a label stating the EXACT condition range for safe playback of the audience scanning portion. It had the minimum distances, minimum scan angle, maximum laser power, and desired divergence labeled on the tape, as well as the specific gas lasers and wavelengths it was designed for. If you met that set of conditions, your show would be safe.

The Germans are a highly technical people, who readily comply with technical regulations. They have strong safety enforcement at the municipal and federal levels.

I think it is a cultural thing. Americans without training and enforcement, or the threat of legal action, would not read the label and just toss it in the player and hit play.



Steve

[flecom]

A fair point Frank but I would make two counters:

1) While the FDA does not "approve" lasers as they do drugs, they do approve of their entry into US commerce via approval of the manufacturer's product report.While of course I agree that they do not typically test models before sale as would normally be done in again say a drug approval process, they do careful review detailed product reports to ensure that manufacturers are doing things safety and approve the filing... when then approves the laser for introduction into commerce. That level of granularity more than most people care about but since the letter that comes from FDA both means and literally says "approved," I think that calling something FDA approved is a fair if not perfectly accurate shorthand.

Secondly, a number of the shows in Europe carefully control their irradiance levels to avoid practically unsafe exposures... I say practically rather than academically because I am not going to sit here and say that everyone follows MPE. That said, a large and growing number of people do try to stick to MPE rules and in any case, without someone having the experience to quantify and mitigate the hazard how would an end user ever know what is safe and what is not?.

A a followup to that, a number of people are somewhat quietly but realistically concerned that many of these shows are actually causing subtle injuries which will show up later in life or may later be exacerbated by other factors. Occult injuries I believe they are called which are not immediately obvious and are corrected for by the brain or not severe enough yet to cause trouble. The FDA's perspective is that an occult injury is still an injury and that seems reasonable to me. However, as you say, there are reasonably few "bodies" so who am I to say for sure?

I don't disagree with you, but who says you can't do a safe show with some of the projectors you get from china?

as long as its + modulation, and has (or you install) a beam stop I don't see the issue... especially when you add people with experience and knowledge into the mix as you suggest

and I personally do *NOT* like audience scanning, having to dodge beams is pretty annoying and ruins a show for me so whats wrong with some mobile DJ buying a $1400 1.5W RGB from china and a QS setup and adding it to his arsenal? as long as he has some reasonable safeties in place (ex beam stop, not audience scanning) who's eyeballs is he hurting?

now, i DO think that the mass import of shit laser projectors at very cheap prices is an issue, because again, to use your numbers out of 100000 people 99998 will not understand the danger, its just a fancy light right?... which could lead to unreasonably high exposures which could lead to issues later on... but since variances are virtually unenforced (and even less now without show reports) who is going to stop them?

to me the new "don't worry about the show reports" is probably one of the final nails in the whole variance thing... think about it, if you don't submit a show report how will they know where/when you are performing to do inspections?