Basics for calculate Hazer needs

[astatic]

I'm wondering how you people calculate the amount or size of a Hazer you need?
I've bought a Smoke Factory tour hazer II which delivers 1500W and the fan can do around 6000l/minute.
Is it wise to have an extra fan behind it so the haze will be spread much quicker, or will an extra fan be completely overdone or even brake down the haze so it will take longer to fill a surrounding?

[Bradfo69]

For me, it's been pretty simple really. Hear about one people like. Buy it. See if it works in my venue. Decide I want something else. Hear about one people like. Buy it. See if it works in my venue. Decide I want something else. Hear about one people like. Buy it. See if it works in my venue. Decide I want something else. Hear about...... well, you get the picture.

There are a number of variables. Oil based versus water based (versus Le Maitre's special sugar based fluid). Are we talking a true hazer or, a "fazer". Some people just stick a fan behind or in front of a fog machine and claim it does the same thing. (Pros and cons to both.) Inside or outside? Are you fighting HVAC or not? How do you want to control it? DMX, wired remote, cordless remote...?

I'm dealing with and experimenting in one venue. I can only imagine what it must be like for people who have to tote gear into new situations all the time. A calculation would simply start by asking what's the width, length and height? How many cubic feet do I need to fill? How quickly do I need to fill? How many cubic feet is my hazer rated for? Do I need two hazers in different positions in order to get it filled quickly? Can I afford to wait for a water based one to heat up or, do I need the instant atmosphere and oil based provides? Like I said, lots of variables.....

[astatic]

Thanx for your reply Bradfo69!
Your first two lines are the way i do it now.
I bought a real hazer (tour hazer II from smoke factory), i've read some good reviews about it but in my opinion i would have a simple quick calculation which decides if it will do the job.
Maybe it's because i'm completely new and don't have the experience that i would like to know these things, i think like you say when i've seen them work it will give me a clear view what decides if it will do the job or not?

[Bradfo69]

I neglected to add that different brands of fluids in the same machine can give vastly different results as well. I'll be interesting in seeing if there is a calculation as well because, as I said, I used length times width times height which, in my particular case, works out to be about 99,000 cubic feet. If a hazer is rated at 2,000 cubic feet per minute, then I'm looking at a little under an hour to haze the room. That's basically crap though because it doesn't tell you to what degree the haze is. If the air is still... or circulating. Even the power of your projector and the amount of ambient light has a bearing on how much haze you need in the atmosphere. I'm not certain there are hard and fast rules. Except one...... "The more it costs, the more you'll think that's the one you need to try for best results."

[dnar]

I'll second what Bradfo69 said.

I have found the fluid to be one of the largest variables. Some fluids provide lots of smoke that vanishes very quickly. I found BaseHaze hazing fluid to linger for ages, and I could get away with a small low power machine (700W).

I have switched to Martin fluid, and it's not as good. I think ultimately I need to purchase Glycerine and Distilled Water and mix my own batch.

HVAC and ventilation systems are the other big variable. You want some movement in the space to help distribute the smoke, but in some situations the ventilation systems remove your smoke as fast as you can produce it. I think a high capacity output machine is your best defense int his case, at the cost of using lots of fluid.

I have moved away from generating smoke too close to my projectors, as I found thick smoke actually attenuates your beams (at a distance) despite looking bright closer to the projectors.

[mixedgas]

Finding that "marketing units" of measure are not to your liking, eh?

The answer is to skip dealing with the uber-commercial lighting companies that outsource their R&D and call a traditional Hazer company like MDG. Get their guidelines for sizing a machine to a room. Good hazers have variable rates and a consistant particle size. I imagine Marc Gringas has probably retired at MDG, but since he sold hazers to the military and insurance companies, a company like MDG will have a means of measuring "obscuration", and know what their machine does in terms of real measure.

There is no easy math, you need to know the airflow volumes into and out of the venue, which in modern venues, can be considerable. The "Hang time" depends on the amount of charged ions in the air, the humidity, the particle size, the over all air flow and a bunch of other factors.

For example,
MDG's oil based systems use a ultra pure oil and a tank of liquid Co2 in a very carefully designed chamber under very carefully controlled conditions, resulting in a known particle size. This is important because a certain size range easily gets deep into your lungs and should be avoided. They use a controlled molecular weight oil for a reason. They had, at one time, clients outside of entertainment, that wanted controlled results.

That oil is second sourced by a PLer, if you need some.

3500$ for a "Atmospheres" machine is not cheap, but it gives you a idea of the care of design compared to a 500$ machine. 3500$ and it uses a fraction of the fluid of a " water" based machine.

Now five people will tell me that MDGs Hazers are expensive *&^% because they never learned to correctly adjust the CO2 flow. I know better.

Placement of the machine in the right spot in the buildings air circ systems does wonders for Hazing a room, so does a distribution fan.
A old oscillating fan or a Rotron Patriot or Major from a Air cooled laser, ie one or more 450+ CFM quiet zippers placed in front of the hazer. This is a 60$ OEM fan that will slice your fingers off, not a CPU fan.


MDG used to show up at ILDA conferences when they still had attendances in the 50-100 people range, and the classes on smoke/haze, were um... interesting...
Especially when they showed up with a machine capable of fogging a outdoor battlefield, and ran it.

Oh, and Dnar, forgive me for being a ass, but glycerine aint all that is in there. Its food grade poly glycols and "fish oils" in commerial fluids. Glycerine will do, but the difference between a good fluid and a excellent fluid is the controlled molecular weight and the distribution of the molecular weights in the fluid. Purely Glycerine machines went the way of the DoDo a long time ago. The food grade glycols are easy to get if your a good engineer.

Fog fluid is "obscured" in myths, some of which seem to "purely" exist as a "smokescreen" to keep the prices up. Fog fluid MSDS sheets are unusually "thin" or vague. Excuse the funs er puns.

Steve

[astatic]

Thanx for the useful comments above.
The only problem i see is that most of the hazer company's will discontinue warranty when you use hazer fluid from a other brand.
As far as i could test it i think i bought a hazer which will do what i expect from it, the only concern which i have is will it fill a large room without having one side filled and the other side hazeless.
Most of this will depend on the air stream in the room, and if there are many objects, so to force the haze in the right direction i would use a large fan.
If that's not working anymore that's the point of where a second hazer comes around the corner?
But to know the hazer capacity i'll put it in a test at my friends place.
He has a very big greenhouse.
I'll take some pictures for the results.
And i'm aware that this test will do only one situation, there will be no 1 rule to fit all.

[dnar]

I neglected to add that different brands of fluids in the same machine can give vastly different results as well. I'll be interesting in seeing if there is a calculation as well because, as I said, I used length times width times height which, in my particular case, works out to be about 99,000 cubic feet. If a hazer is rated at 2,000 cubic feet per minute, then I'm looking at a little under an hour to haze the room.

I have never thought dividing the room volume by the delivery rate to be a valid calculation. Why would you want to fill the room with thick smoke? Say you room is 100,000 cubic feet, then I would consider 10,000 or 20,000 cubic feet of smoke to be heaps!!!!

[astatic]

@Yoda, i think brad meant haze, i can not depict he wants to fill the room with thick smoke.

The only thing the hazer/smoke company's say is that it can move 2,000 cubic feet per minute, but not how far it will spread and how fast.
There is no standard which tells us what category the hazer is meant for.
Like Steve said, it depends on the fluid, and local circumstances which will make the difference.
And this is only inside, not talking about outdoor events, where this will be a lot more difficult i think.

[mixedgas]

@Yoda, i think brad meant haze, i can not depict he wants to fill the room with thick smoke.

The only thing the hazer/smoke company's say is that it can move 2,000 cubic feet per minute, but not how far it will spread and how fast.
There is no standard which tells us what category the hazer is meant for.
Like Steve said, it depends on the fluid, and local circumstances which will make the difference.
And this is only inside, not talking about outdoor events, where this will be a lot more difficult i think.

Hazer outdoors = career suicide. For that you need big fog machines and fans.

The way concert venues do this, and you have to be very careful how you approach the venue, is to put the hazer into the air distro system or at its air handling outlets. That is only for a true, non cracking, hazer.

THIS IS NOT FOR FOG MACHINES UNLESS YOU WANT TO RUIN THE WHOLE GIG FOR EVERYONE.

Ps, They are not going to be able to tell if you used Brand A or Brand B fluid, provided it is the right class of fluid. I've mixed my own, more then once. I've also torn down my machines and fixed them.
As long as you run the cleaning procedures often, its impossible to tell without running a sample of the fluid through a expensive lab. White scummy residue is white scummy residue. :-)

Steve