SwissLas PM-1800RGB

[gottaluvlasers]

And this is the EXACT reason why people are getting fed up with this shit!!! Verkoop just got flamed for this, Laserworld was/is flamed for this and now it is being discussed AGAIN.

If the laser modules in your system add up to 1.3W then it is a 1.3W laser. PERIOD!! End of story!!! And this is what the system should be sold as. If a customer happens to get lucky and get a hot unit putting out 1.8W, GREAT- Thats awesome! Dont you think it would be MUCH better business ethics to PLEASE customers rather than have to explain WHY their 1.8W Laser is only putting out 1.3W? Or, why dont you let customers play your game...charge them for a 1.8W and if the laser only outputs 1.3W or less, than refund the difference. Would you be willing to do that?

If you charge someone for 1.8W, and they only get 1.3W, dont you think that is a little unfair?

-Marc

[White-Light]

Let me just add if you sold the projector within the EU like this then you could possibly be prosecuted if you were found to have mislead a consumer, or at least your dealers in the EU could. Unsure about selling direct bit from outside EU, but I would have thought you'd be most likely liable as well.

Obviously the extra explanation of maximum power on here helps, but generally, if a consumer sees a 1.8 W model advertised, then they would reasonably expect a 1.8W model, so without the extra explanation......

And even then you'd be having to prove the consumer was aware of the power limitations before purchase

This is a link to the UK version of some EU legislation:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0081277_en.pdf

As it was enacted by EU Directive, every country in Europe should have it's own version.

Basically to put it in simple terms, it's now a Criminal Offence to in any way mislead a consumer (including by omission as well as representation or implication) within the EU and that includes advertising of specification specifically, although the UK version at least also contains a "catch all" clause in addition to the specific offence clauses, that ensures that if you mislead a consumer in anyway whatsoever, you can also be prosecuted.

Somehow a doubt a court would have little sympathy for a 1.8W version fitted with lasers totalling 1.3W on paper.

Penalties in the UK include up to 5 years imprisonment of the Directors of any company involved and an Unlimited Fine.

Small Extract:

PART 2

PROHIBITIONS

Prohibition of unfair commercial practices

3.—(1) Unfair commercial practices are prohibited.
(2) Paragraphs (3) and (4) set out the circumstances when a commercial practice is unfair.
(3) A commercial practice is unfair if—
(a) it contravenes the requirements of professional diligence; and
(b) it materially distorts or is likely to materially distort the economic behaviour of the
average consumer with regard to the product.

(4) A commercial practice is unfair if—
(a) it is a misleading action under the provisions of regulation 5;
(b) it is a misleading omission under the provisions of regulation 6;
(c) it is aggressive under the provisions of regulation 7; or
(d) it is listed in Schedule 1.


Prohibition of the promotion of unfair commercial practices
4. The promotion of any unfair commercial practice by a code owner in a code of conduct is
prohibited.

Misleading actions

5.—(1) A commercial practice is a misleading action if it satisfies the conditions in either
paragraph (2) or paragraph (3).
(2) A commercial practice satisfies the conditions of this paragraph—
(a) if it contains false information and is therefore untruthful in relation to any of the matters
in paragraph (4) or if it or its overall presentation in any way deceives or is likely to
deceive the average consumer in relation to any of the matters in that paragraph, even if
the information is factually correct; and
(b) it causes or is likely to cause the average consumer to take a transactional decision he
would not have taken otherwise.
(3) A commercial practice satisfies the conditions of this paragraph if—
(a) it concerns any marketing of a product (including comparative advertising) which creates
confusion with any products, trade marks, trade names or other distinguishing marks of a
competitor; or
(b) it concerns any failure by a trader to comply with a commitment contained in a code of
conduct which the trader has undertaken to comply with, if—
(i) the trader indicates in a commercial practice that he is bound by that code of
conduct, and
(ii) the commitment is firm and capable of being verified and is not aspirational,
4
and it causes or is likely to cause the average consumer to take a transactional decision he would
not have taken otherwise, taking account of its factual context and of all its features and
circumstances.

(4) The matters referred to in paragraph (2)(a) are—

(a) the existence or nature of the product;
(b) the main characteristics of the product (as defined in paragraph 5);
(c) the extent of the trader’s commitments;
(d) the motives for the commercial practice;
(e) the nature of the sales process;
(f) any statement or symbol relating to direct or indirect sponsorship or approval of the trader
or the product;
(g) the price or the manner in which the price is calculated;
(h) the existence of a specific price advantage;
(i) the need for a service, part, replacement or repair;
(j) the nature, attributes and rights of the trader (as defined in paragraph 6);
(k) the consumer’s rights or the risks he may face.
(5) In paragraph (4)(b), the “main characteristics of the product” include—
(a) availability of the product;
(b) benefits of the product;
(c) risks of the product;
(d) execution of the product;
(e) composition of the product;
(f) accessories of the product;
(g) after-sale customer assistance concerning the product;
(h) the handling of complaints about the product;
(i) the method and date of manufacture of the product;
(j) the method and date of provision of the product;
(k) delivery of the product;
(l) fitness for purpose of the product;
(m) usage of the product;
(n) quantity of the product;
(o) specification of the product;
(p) geographical or commercial origin of the product;
(q) results to be expected from use of the product; and
(r) results and material features of tests or checks carried out on the product.

(6) In paragraph (4)(j), the “nature, attributes and rights” as far as concern the trader include the
trader’s—
(a) identity;
(b) assets;
(c) qualifications;
(d) status;
(e) approval;
(f) affiliations or connections;
(g) ownership of industrial, commercial or intellectual property rights; and

5
(h) awards and distinctions.
(7) In paragraph (4)(k) “consumer’s rights” include rights the consumer may have under Part 5A
of the Sale of Goods Act 1979(a) or Part 1B of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982(b).

Misleading omissions

6.—(1) A commercial practice is a misleading omission if, in its factual context, taking account
of the matters in paragraph (2)—
(a) the commercial practice omits material information,
(b) the commercial practice hides material information,
(c) the commercial practice provides material information in a manner which is unclear,
unintelligible, ambiguous or untimely, or
(d) the commercial practice fails to identify its commercial intent, unless this is already
apparent from the context,
and as a result it causes or is likely to cause the average consumer to take a transactional decision
he would not have taken otherwise.
(2) The matters referred to in paragraph (1) are—
(a) all the features and circumstances of the commercial practice;
(b) the limitations of the medium used to communicate the commercial practice (including
limitations of space or time); and
(c) where the medium used to communicate the commercial practice imposes limitations of
space or time, any measures taken by the trader to make the information available to
consumers by other means.
(3) In paragraph (1) “material information” means—
(a) the information which the average consumer needs, according to the context, to take an
informed transactional decision; and
(b) any information requirement which applies in relation to a commercial communication as
a result of a Community obligation.
(4) Where a commercial practice is an invitation to purchase, the following information will be
material if not already apparent from the context in addition to any other information which is
material information under paragraph (3)—
(a) the main characteristics of the product, to the extent appropriate to the medium by which
the invitation to purchase is communicated and the product;
(b) the identity of the trader, such as his trading name, and the identity of any other trader on
whose behalf the trader is acting;
(c) the geographical address of the trader and the geographical address of any other trader on
whose behalf the trader is acting;
(d) either—
(i) the price, including any taxes; or
(ii) where the nature of the product is such that the price cannot reasonably be calculated
in advance, the manner in which the price is calculated;
(e) where appropriate, either—
(i) all additional freight, delivery or postal charges; or
(ii) where such charges cannot reasonably be calculated in advance, the fact that such
charges may be payable;
(a) 1979 c.54; Part 5A was inserted by S.I. 2002/3045.
(b) 1982 c.29. Part 1B was inserted by S.I.2002/3045.
6
(f) the following matters where they depart from the requirements of professional
diligence—
(i) arrangements for payment,
(ii) arrangements for delivery,
(iii) arrangements for performance,
(iv) complaint handling policy;
(g) for products and transactions involving a right of withdrawal or cancellation, the
existence of such a right.
Aggressive commercial practices
7.—(1) A commercial practice is aggressive if, in its factual context, taking account of all of its
features and circumstances—
(a) it significantly impairs or is likely significantly to impair the average consumer’s freedom
of choice or conduct in relation to the product concerned through the use of harassment,
coercion or undue influence; and
(b) it thereby causes or is likely to cause him to take a transactional decision he would not
have taken otherwise.
(2) In determining whether a commercial practice uses harassment, coercion or undue influence
account shall be taken of—
(a) its timing, location, nature or persistence;
(b) the use of threatening or abusive language or behaviour;
(c) the exploitation by the trader of any specific misfortune or circumstance of such gravity
as to impair the consumer’s judgment, of which the trader is aware, to influence the
consumer’s decision with regard to the product;
(d) any onerous or disproportionate non-contractual barrier imposed by the trader where a
consumer wishes to exercise rights under the contract, including rights to terminate a
contract or to switch to another product or another trader; and
(e) any threat to take any action which cannot legally be taken.
(3) In this regulation—
(a) “coercion” includes the use of physical force; and
(b) “undue influence” means exploiting a position of power in relation to the consumer so as
to apply pressure, even without using or threatening to use physical force, in a way which
significantly limits the consumer’s ability to make an informed decision.

PART 3
OFFENCES
Offences relating to unfair commercial practices
8.—(1) A trader is guilty of an offence if—
(a) he knowingly or recklessly engages in a commercial practice which contravenes the
requirements of professional diligence under regulation 3(3)(a); and
(b) the practice materially distorts or is likely to materially distort the economic behaviour of
the average consumer with regard to the product under regulation 3(3)(b).
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(a) a trader who engages in a commercial practice without
regard to whether the practice contravenes the requirements of professional diligence shall be
deemed recklessly to engage in the practice, whether or not the trader has reason for believing that
the practice might contravene those requirements.

[JStewart]

Unfortunately this sort of thing has been going on for years, with it being easy for suppliers to be deceitful over power specifications, simply because for the most part they can go unchallenged; for, of course, it needs for the customer to have power meter to verify the output that they have been sold is actually present.

Years ago a notorious UK ‘laser supplier’ used to sell ALC68s as ‘converted water cooled lasers’ claiming an output of 5W, where the original spec was 0.5W. (Ok, actually you could run them very briefly at much greater powers if you frigged the PSU, so at least there as some chance someone could have that power, albeit for 30s!) Then, later when micro YAGs arrived, the classification label on the Melles Griot 2.5W-3W lasers would state <10W. So guess what… These were being sold as 10W lasers.

It’s not just manufacturers that are sometimes hoodwinking customers, I see it too with some of the installations I check. The client is told one figure, and I’m told another (sometimes). When I see the lasers in situ, they won’t be as powerful as that the customer thinks they have got. I say nothing of course, as my job is to check safety. But it is easy to see how people can get away with it.

As Al points out there is legislation to try and stamp out such practices, but if a manufacturer has a glossy brochure and website, and appears to be successful, charge a high price, and be and ILDA member, they why should a customer think that they have bought anything less than that being quoted?

James

[johnmcc]

Wow, just had a chance to look at this thread, there def seems to be a lot of controversy! I went to see the laser yesterday and it was a lovely little unit, I loved the fact it was cooled through fins at the bottom and no air flow goes through the unit. The colours were stunning and the beams were very, very tight. I don't know what scan rate the shop was running the unit at but it did look rather jittery for my liking. I also didn't like the fact that it run off a 24v power adapter, I prefer this to be built into the unit rather than having to have to rig this up along with the laser.

I really don't like the fact that this company is trying to sell it at a higher wattage, it really puts me off the product and for a 1.3W it is rather pricey too!!

Another point to make is that on the unit, I didn't notice it having a key switch or a port to connect an e stop switch. I don't know but is this legal?

I've been looking at the Stanwax RGB Shoebox laser and have seen that you can have a 1.2W or 1.5W version. Does anyone know anything about Stanwax lasers? Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

John

[Jem]

I've been looking at the Stanwax RGB Shoebox laser and have seen that you can have a 1.2W or 1.5W version. Does anyone know anything about Stanwax lasers? Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Hi John

You won't go wrong buying one of Rob's (Stanwax's) systems. He's an absolute top bloke and makes first class gear. Best of all he's in the UK, so you'll also get superb after sales service should you have any problems

Cheers

Jem

[johnmcc]

Hi Jem,

I have read a lot of good things about him on here. I am interested in gathering some opinions though. Have you purchased a laser from him yourself?

Thanks,

John

[sbk]

I can confirm about Stanwax's products, I ordered a lot of things from him (no lasers though, but several boards made by him, etc) and was always very happy, excellent quality and service. I have no doubt his laser projectors will be top notch too

[JStewart]

Did the Swisslas projector have the start button and interlock?

James

[johnmcc]

Did the Swisslas projector have the start button and interlock?

James

From what I saw on the back of the unit it had a x and y axis flip, red, green and blue power knobs, ILDA in/out and power input thats all.
On the video on youtube it has a view of the back of the unit and thats all I can see on it there too.

[vakuum]

interlock signal is through ILDA pin 4+17 !
it is also possible to make it by the AC Power (the projector shuts down with enough speed)
so you don't need a extra cable...

all this is write in the manual of the PureMicro Projector