Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 42

Thread: petition started to give to ILDA

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Switzerland
    Posts
    1,410

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gabe View Post
    I've thought the same thing, though I have heard that people have either tried that or there already are or something. Maybe i'm wrong.
    An hobbyist award already exists on the german laser forum - do a search for "Laserfreak Award"


    Quote Originally Posted by norty303 View Post
    Hmm, is this considered to be new?

    Isn't that just an ethernet controlled DAC mounted inside the projector? The same as mounting any ethernet controlled DAC inside the projector? It's not really a 'standard' unless every DAC works with every piece of control software. The current 'standard' is compatible with any DAC you plug into it that conforms to the standard.

    Who is making these wonderful interface boards, and how do we intend to feed them with a signal from our software such as Beyond, or LivePro if our current hardware outputs analogue?
    Surely you can't be suggesting that every piece of laser software will become compatible directly with these wonderful interface boards, thus negating the need for a proprietary DAC?
    That would be a major revolution, if a universal standard for ethernet => analog ILDA signals would arise, and if this board would be compatible with all the existing laser softwares!
    But unless this happen, we will be stuck with ILDA input connector on any projector if we will keep any flexibility about software diversity...

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Miami, FL
    Posts
    3,590

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by masterpj View Post
    I dont have anything to comment on that.
    I wouldn't even bring pangolin up in that.
    Thing is even though something may seem unbelievable times change and so do standards. even though ilda connections will always be there it is about time the DB25 cable should leave the field of new projectors.
    or at least offer either ethernet or ilda.

    Sure its not new with mounted controllers in projectors but that is currently not common.


    About that shift I dont know.
    It could take a few years, just saying the shift is happening.
    Its not like boom suddenly ilda is gone.
    it will go smoothly if it happens.
    whenever I have to do something that *has* to work I always employ KISS

    keep it simple stupid

    adding extra A>D D>A seems like asking for problems...

    anyway they have been talking about the "ILDA Digital Standard" or whatever for years and nothing has come of it yet, so I am not holding my breath on that happening anytime soon

  3. #23
    mixedgas's Avatar
    mixedgas is offline Creaky Old Award Winning Bastard Technologist
    Infinitus Excellentia Ion Laser Dominatus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    A lab with some dripping water on the floor.
    Posts
    9,890

    Default

    I can't see a issue if the hobby members are non voting or hobby members get one voting rep seat on the board. This gets around what scares the classical ILDA members, another takeover. Takeovers of the board, really just turnovers in the industry, do happen about every ten years with the ILDA board.

    If you look at the ILDA Corporation Charter, ILDA gives its members a heck of a lot more voting power then say AOPA or NRA. This is very good for emergencies. This industry has had its fair share of regulatory actions that needed a swift kick by the board in a emergency. However this can make for some very wild swings in Governance if left wide open to dozens of more members. Or even a outright takeover by another group.
    Hence the wish to keep the reigns tightly held. Imagine if Country Music DJ Association Inc, decided to have forty members join ILDA, and then propose a motion to Merge ILDA. Bye ILDA. Then we have no voice at all.

    If ILDA had not had seats on the SAE G10 "Lasers in Aerospace" standards group some years ago, we most likely would have lost ALL outdoor laser shows in the US. Those "TIGHT" US rules then migrated to many nations, ie UK, Canada, Germany, that have air travel treaties with the USA. ILDA in many ways mitigated the damage from the "Vegas Incident" around the world. Many of you are too young to remember that. So ILDA can really step up in a pinch.

    Two, ILDA has done a heck of a lot of work behind the scenes with CDRH and FAA lately. So it still has benefits for US members.
    Like not having to do advance show reports... Care to guess where that CDRH action probably came from? I doubt they would have done that just to save money at CDRH.

    So don't write ILDA off as useless, just yet. Try to see a whole big picture that you cannot see without looking at the board meeting notes and the corporate charter.

    I too, many times, tried to champion a hobby class membership, but "Individual" is about as good as its going to get, unless more people join and show up at meetings.

    I just cant justify membership right now, in fact I would be better off with LIA, the huge scientific and industrial group. But they are so out of touch, it makes ILDA look very much alive and proactive.

    Steve

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    My momentum is too precisely determined :S
    Posts
    1,777

    Default

    No one said ILDA is useless as a lobby organisation, but rather for us, hobbyists. Even if they added a hobbyist level, then what would be the benefits?

    Of course we need a lobby organisation that takes care that the regulations keep bearable. But if the only thing they can provide for hobbyists is a badly maintained website with information that can already be found elsewhere then what's the point?

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    East Sussex, England
    Posts
    5,248

    Default

    Try to see a whole big picture that you cannot see without looking at the board meeting notes and the corporate charter.
    Is this stuff visible to non-members?

    Because in lieu of any direct specific benefits of membership, this is the stuff that 'might' encourage people to join and support the organisation - but its sort of chicken and egg if you don't get to see evidence of the good work unless you're already a member. Preaching to the converted springs to mind...
    Frikkin Lasers
    http://www.frikkinlasers.co.uk

    You are using Bonetti's defense against me, ah?

    I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    2,147,489,446

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    So, I would ask you: what do you expect to get out of ILDA even if you joined? I have my doubts that you would get anything out of it. And what do you think ILDA would get out of having you for what basically amounts to chump change. Now, I am not trying to belittle you or any other hobbiest. Just laying out my experience and how I can see others feeling about this.
    This is a very good point, Gary. For most hobbyist members, the answer is - nothing. The average hobbyist won't gain anything from joining ILDA. About the only case you can make is that they are the only organization that actively lobbies to protect our industry from lousy, knee-jerk legislation. But that's a very nebulous benefit that is a hard sell to your average hobbyist, especially when places like PL offer so much more bang for your buck. (And also because not all hobbyists harbor dreams of "going commercial" one day...)
    Quote Originally Posted by X-Laser View Post
    But, it is not accurate to say that ILDA just doesn't care about smaller companies or hobbyists. That view is, in my opinion, much too un-nuanced to be true. Sitting on the board, I can say with confidence that it is not the case.
    I don't think there is much nuance there, Dan. There is one group that is interested in the hobbyist crowd, and there is another group that wants the hobbyist crowd to go away and stay away. Sure, there are a few folks who straddle the fence a bit, but those are the two main camps, and it was abundantly clear where people stood on the issue at both conferences I attended. And from my experience, it seems that the "go away" crowd is the majority opinion. Example: The whole "ILDA-certified professional" label was conceived as a way to distance the larger companies from small fry (like me, for example) who are now listed in the ranks as ILDA members right along side them.
    The industry is evolving and ILDA needs to evolve with it - but $125 is quite a reasonable annual membership fee in my opinion if one were to compare it to IAAPA, NAMM, ADJA, NAME, etc.
    Unfair comparison. Those organizations are many orders of magnitude larger than ILDA, and do much, much more for their members. IAAPA conferences have thousands of booths. Even ADJA conferences have 50 to 100 exhibitors. The last two ILDA conferences I went to had 5 and 3 exhibitors, and they were all table-top exhibits only. (How many companies exhibited in Moscow last year?)

    Then there's the matter of attendance. Every organization you mentioned draws crowds that are hundreds (if not thousands) of times larger than any ILDA conference. Hell, even SELEM has had more than double the number of paying attendees for the last 3 years running when compared to the ILDA conferences, despite the fact that our fees are 1/10th that of an ILDA conference.

    Bottom line: ILDA provides very little tangible benefit to a hobbyist apart from it's role as a laser industry lobbyist. And when people are trying to decide between spending $120 to support PL verses $125 to support ILDA, I can tell you that most people choose PL.

    Personally, I support both, because I like the fact that ILDA is out there and I want it to continue, but I also recognize that it is a stagnant organization that desperately needs to reinvent itself, lest it become irrelevent.
    Quote Originally Posted by mixedgas View Post
    I can't see a issue if the hobby members are non voting or hobby members get one voting rep seat on the board. This gets around what scares the classical ILDA members, another takeover. Takeovers of the board, really just turnovers in the industry, do happen about every ten years with the ILDA board.
    I, too, was puzzled at the resistance to the idea of the hobbyist category, but after thinking about it a good bit following the 2010 conference, I've come to the conclusion that there are certain corporate members of the organization that do not want new hobbyist members - period, even if they have no power to start with. I suppose it could be because they're afraid that once the unwashed masses are admitted, they might decide to pony up more money so they CAN vote, and that would upset the balance of power... But honestly, I think it's more that they just like their club the way it is, and they don't want anyone to change a thing.
    If ILDA had not had seats on the SAE G10 "Lasers in Aerospace" standards group some years ago, we most likely would have lost ALL outdoor laser shows in the US. So ILDA can really step up in a pinch.

    Two, ILDA has done a heck of a lot of work behind the scenes with CDRH and FAA lately. So it still has benefits for US members.
    I agree with these points, and they are the main reason I still support them. But these points mean very little to the average hobbyist who is just goofing around in his basement. Sure, if he ever wants to go commerical at some point in the future, then these items will become very important, but until that day comes, it's off the radar.
    don't write ILDA off as useless, just yet.
    I agree. But I also realize that an organization that fails to actively recruit new members is doomed to fail. ILDA appears to be headed down that path.
    I just cant justify membership right now
    And with that one sentence, you've summed up the thought process of the VAST majority of laser hobbyists around the world. Thus far, ILDA has been unable to do anything to change this reality. And that's really unfortunate, because while I've certainly met some very smart people in ILDA, I've met many more of them through PL. ILDA could benefit from a taste of the untapped talent we have in the hobbyist community, if only they would reach out more.

    Adam

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    320

    Default

    Adam,

    Regardless of size, I think you have to compare mission to mission, purpose to purpose. It is quite true that ILDA lacks some of the benefits of ADJA for example. It takes a population paying dues to make these benefits possible.. a trade association with a couple hundred members INTERNATIONALLY is not terribly attractive to an insurance provider or merchant processor to get a deal cut. However, even before ADJA had all of its benefits and WAY before the convention, dues were north of $150 a year.

    Not for nothing but ILDA does quite a lot to lobby and those efforts are supported by member dues. A LOT has happened but behind the scenes and in plain view to improve the lot of laser folk particularly in the US regulatory environment and those efforts would not be possible were it not for what infrastructure ILDA can bring to bear on the issues. Is it nebulous? To some degree.... but ask anyone who has applied for a variance and gotten within six weeks (down from 2+ years) and they will tell you there have been tangible results.

    Further, I think that a point has to be made here in that ILDA is a TRADE association. Generally speaking, it is focused on issues of commercial laser production and trade concerns because that is what it is. Now, I do think that there is value in expanding that focus and clearly I think that the hobbyist voice is of value (otherwise I would not be spending time in this community) but I don't think that ILDA can philosophically be faulted for focusing on trade members any more than ADJA can be faulted for not focusing on bedroom DJ's and enthusiasts. A big part of the value of ILDA is networking and for those who chose to do so and can make use of it, it is very valuable. How much value is that to a hobbyist? I really don't know... but it seems like most people here think not very much.

    So let me ask the opposite question as it will be asked when I bring this up: If the average hobbyist is not going to reap much direct benefit from being a member of the association, why would the average hobbyist want to be a member and/or why would ILDA spend time and resources to court the hobbyist community? It seems like some of the sentiments here feel it would be a less than ideal match in the first place. If that is the case, what is the actual issue here? PL serves a purpose for its members, ILDA serves a purpose for its members. What is gained by trying to integrate the two?

    Let me be clear, the question above is not to suggest that I see no value in giving this a go. Quite to the contrary... I am just trying to reconcile the various perspectives to firm this up in my own head. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    2,147,489,446

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by X-Laser View Post
    a trade association with a couple hundred members INTERNATIONALLY is not terribly attractive to an insurance provider or merchant processor to get a deal cut.
    True. However, in my search for my own insurance, I stumbled across a company that had put together a group policy deal for laser light show companies over a decade ago for a former ILDA member. This was to be part of an "ILDA-suggested" (not sanctioned or certified) insurance program. Unfortunately, ILDA never capitalized on the proposed deal. 2 years later, an individual managed to track down the company to see if the group deal was still available, but the underwriter decided it was too late and they pulled their support. Now it's just an angry memory at the agency, and a couple of dusty folders in a file cabinet.

    Nevertheless, this tells me that it is possible to arrange for group deals even for small numbers of members. In fact, the insurance company I finally went with was willing to work with other people in my same situation, and they were licensed in 5 states. That's a start at least, and I managed that all by myself. In contrast, when I initially started this quest for insurance, I started with the ILDA website, which had two dead links and bad phone numbers, and one name that led me to a company that was no longer selling insurance. Not much help from the only laser trade organization in existence...
    Not for nothing but ILDA does quite a lot to lobby and those efforts are supported by member dues.
    Yes, I agree with this. In fact, it's the main reason I continue to support them. And I'm well aware of the emergency actions ILDA has taken to correct innacuracies in the press (particularly after the Aquamarine rave incident outside Moscow back in the summer of 2008). Such work is commendable.

    My point is not that there is no benefit. Rather, it is that these benefits are still very intangible - and thus a difficult sell - for the average hobbyist, particularly at the princely sum of $125 per year.
    I don't think that ILDA can philosophically be faulted for focusing on trade members
    I fault them for framing the issue as a false dichotomy. It doesn't have to be us or them exclusively. You can have both, and the organization and the hobbyist community will both benefit from the union. They can still focus on trade members, but as an organization they have done almost nothing to reach out to the hobbyist community, and in my opinion they should have been doing this long ago. (Note that INDIVIDUAL members, including yourself, have done a great deal, but you, or Patrick Murphy, or Bill Benner, or any other hobbyist-friendly ILDA member doing work is not the same as the organization as a whole taking the position of reaching out to the community.)
    A big part of the value of ILDA is networking and for those who chose to do so and can make use of it, it is very valuable. How much value is that to a hobbyist? I really don't know... but it seems like most people here think not very much.
    It might have more value if they could network with people that would actually help them. (Especially other hobbyists; which is why SELEM is so popular.) Now, being able to network with people like yourself would certainly be beneficial. But networking with someone who tours 10 months out of the year with a major rock and roll outfit might be rather pointless for most hobbyists, unless they were ready to go on the road themselves. (Unlikely) So until more hobbyists join, there's not a lot of networking benefits. It's sort of a chicken-or-the-egg problem.
    If the average hobbyist is not going to reap much direct benefit from being a member of the association, why would the average hobbyist want to be a member and/or why would ILDA spend time and resources to court the hobbyist community?
    From the hobbyist's perspective: a reduced-cost membership is justifiable even on the intangible benefits of having a lobbyist in our corner, and on the limited networking possibilities that might present themselves, at least in the beginning. $125 is just too much to justify when there are other options out there that are cheaper. (eg: a one-year PL subscription)

    From ILDA's perspective: even at $40 per year (or $50), every new member brings more money to help fund the organization's initiatives. And by restricting hobbyists to non-voting status, there is no risk of the operation being overrun or otherwise disrupted. Truly, it's a win-win scenario.

    Furthermore, by actively courting the hobbyist community, ILDA ensures that they have a large pool of talented people to draw from in the future. Some of those early hobbyist members will undoubtedly go on to become professional laserists, and when they do, they will already be a part of the organization. By involving them early on, ILDA can better benefit from the skills these people have to offer. (Especially in the early days, when they still have their passion and aren't contrained by the time pressures of a busy summer tour schedule.)
    It seems like some of the sentiments here feel it would be a less than ideal match in the first place.
    In the beginning, I agree. But as more hobbyists get involved, the perceived value of an ILDA membership (for a hobbyist) will increase. Likewise, in the beginning, ILDA will not see a large increase in dues collected. But as time progresses, it will grow. Contrast that with the growth rate of the organization over the last decade... See my point?
    What is the actual issue here?
    For me? I'd say it's the closed-minded attitude of a few key board members. There are ILDA members who are open to this idea. But a lot of them have learned that when certain board members say things - that's the end of the discussion. That needs to stop, in my opinion. (Mind you: if they have legitimate problems with the idea - let's hear them. But to shut down a conversation with a comment about "big girl panties" absolutely REEKS of elitism.)
    PL serves a purpose for its members, ILDA serves a purpose for its members. What is gained by trying to integrate the two?
    Call me a dreamer, call me an optomist, but I firmly believe that both organizations will benefit from the increased flow of ideas and information between them. That's my opinion anyway.
    Let me be clear, the question above is not to suggest that I see no value in giving this a go. Quite to the contrary... I am just trying to reconcile the various perspectives to firm this up in my own head.
    I understand, Dan. And please realize that I'm not painting you with the same brush as all ILDA board members. I know you've been very supportive of our community. And in fact, there are other present and past board members who share this sentiment, including Bill Benner, Patrick Murphy, and Tim Walsh, to name a few.

    Adam

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Edinburgh, UK
    Posts
    26

    Default

    If I could add my $0.02...

    I've been a member of PL for a few months now without really posting, just stopping in every now and then. On every visit, I've witnessed a great, enthusiastic community with a vast shared knowledgebase. And that's how PL appears to me - a community, in the very best sense.

    When I started out building projectors and doing small shows, I would have loved to have access to a place like PL. I didn't know anyone else involved in this crazy hobby, had no-one to bounce ideas off, and had to learn all the legislation and H&S for public shows by reading lengthy, verbose HSE docs. I was aware of ILDA but, like many on here, didn't really see the point. Even if I could, I certainly couldn't justify the joining fee.

    As the shows grew in size, power and complexity, I decided to trial a corporate ILDA membership.

    From a business P.O.V, I really see the benefits - The discounts received on Public Liability insurance and products alone have probably close to covered my membership. Larger venues, festivals, council H&S teams and site managers take us more seriously as ILDA members, and I also get good discounts from other ILDA members if I have to hire in additional kit to meet a large show spec.

    However, in terms of knowledge-sharing, I don't think it offers any more than PL can. Take Dan G as an example - Dan is a member of ILDA, running huge shows, but doesn't ring-fence that knowledge to ILDA members - As a member of PL, he's happy to share his knowledge and experience on here.

    So, as a laser & show enthusiast, I'd spend the ILDA membership on more diodes, but running a laser show business, I think the membership is invaluable. I guess it just depends on what you're looking for...

    Again, as I say... Just my $0.02

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Churchill(hour S from Houston)
    Posts
    1,354

    Default

    @ buffo.........
    QUOTE
    From the hobbyist's perspective: a reduced-cost membership is justifiable even on the intangible benefits of having a lobbyist in our corner, and on the limited networking possibilities that might present themselves, at least in the beginning. $125 is just too much to justify when there are other options out there that are cheaper. (eg: a one-year PL subscription)

    From ILDA's perspective: even at $40 per year (or $50), every new member brings more money to help fund the organization's initiatives. And by restricting hobbyists to non-voting status, there is no risk of the operation being overrun or otherwise disrupted. Truly, it's a win-win scenario.

    Furthermore, by actively courting the hobbyist community, ILDA ensures that they have a large pool of talented people to draw from in the future. Some of those early hobbyist members will undoubtedly go on to become professional laserists, and when they do, they will already be a part of the organization. By involving them early on, ILDA can better benefit from the skills these people have to offer. (Especially in the early days, when they still have their passion and aren't contrained by the time pressures of a busy summer tour schedule.) END QUOTE

    ^^^ thats how I see it too-- Is a 'Student' defined by age or formal classes..???

    I AM a student-- with LOTS to learn.. I am not taking Lasershow 101 and I am turning 65 in ~2 weeks.

    I have no dreams of changing anything about ILDA-- why is there a student level anyway?? are there any/many??

    anyhooo............ this thread has alot of great points of view and I thank you one and ALL. Especially Adam, Gary, Steve and Dan.

    I have 50$ for ILDA but sorry $125 is not in my present budget...

    thanks Len

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •