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Thread: Need a Sanity Check - QS or Beyond

  1. #31
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    This is a situation where words really can't explain the problem, let alone the solution. A few pictures were provided, but they are not very informative, unfortunately.

    I'll have Aaron mock up this whole thing tomorrow so we can make sure that there isn't some bug that has crept into our software. I suspect there isn't, but I always like to double-check.

    The rest of this post is made with the assumption that there isn't a bug, but rather a lack of understanding on the part of some users. To me the solution for this lack of understanding is a tutorial video which explains the situations, and then explains the solutions, which I believe are not all that difficult.

    -------------------------

    First let me say that ALL of this is really complicated stuff. 25 years ago it was literally scientists who were doing laser shows!!

    At Pangolin, I think we've done a great job by making laser shows easy to do with QuickShow, but one thing we did in QuickShow was to port the Projection Zone system, almost unchanged, from LivePRO and LD2000. So that's one hugely powerful feature but also much more complex than the other parts of QuickShow. This might have been a mistake on our part. It could be that the smarter thing to do would have been to really dumb-down the projection zone section, and if people needed more, have them upgrade to BEYOND or LD2000.

    In any event, my thinking is this:

    1. In general, projectors are used EITHER for graphics or beams, but generally not both. In such cases, our default PZ settings are fine.
    2. Where projectors are used for both graphics and beams (for example, either projecting through a scrim, or onto a rear-projection screen that is motorized), a single click of the projector invert switch or the Invert X check box in our master settings makes everything work. So again, our default PZ settings are fine.
    3. It would be a really wacky setup where a projector is required to project graphics onto a screen in a front-projection fashion, but then do audience scanning in a kind of rear projection fashion. In such a circumstance, changes are needed in the PZ settings to invert the sense of the X axis on either graphic content or beam content -- your choice which.

    In any event, we provide the power to accomplish what you need.

    There is a tenant of user interface design, and one that we live by: "Simple things should be easy, complex things should be possible". Al, it seems to me that what you want to do is complex. We provide the possibility of doing it with the projection zones dialog box. It doesn't work the way you expect right out of the box, but then I guarantee you nobody's software does (and unfortunately with all of the other guys, it's not just a few mouse clicks that will make it work like it is with our software, thanks to projection zones)...

    Bill

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    ...It would be a really wacky setup...
    I guess I have a "wacky setup" then Bill!

    At present, hanging a scrim or projecting graphics are not my typical use cases. I expect the audience's view of my beam-show to match the preview. I also expect that when I project a test pattern which needs to hit a surface (front-projection, given my typical use cases) that it will appear as per the cue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    ...projector is required to project graphics onto a screen in a front-projection fashion, but then do audience scanning in a kind of rear projection fashion. In such a circumstance, changes are needed in the PZ settings to invert the sense of the X axis on either graphic content or beam content -- your choice which.
    As soon as I realised the default behaviour, thanks to White-Light's observation (and no thanks to my lack thereof), I applied a -100% X size to all my graphics projection zones. So all good, Beyond does have the appropriate capabilities to deal with my use cases/expectations, and does so elegantly (now that I know).

    This might all seem obvious to many of you long time Pangolin users, but it did surprise me

  3. #33
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    Wow, do you project your graphics at 100% size?
    My graphics zones are normally significantly smaller than beam zones for all sorts of reasons.
    http://www.facebook.com/SubsonicSystems
    http://www.frikkinlazors.co.uk

    You are using Bonetti's defense against me, ah?

    I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by norty303 View Post
    ...do you project your graphics at 100% size?
    I don't project graphics (not my thing). I do project test patterns from time to time - I've not yet made a habit of changing the default projection zone for test patterns to the beam show zone(s), hence the size of my graphics zone.

  5. #35
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    I'm sorry guys, but I'm having trouble even wrapping my head around the problem.

    For the simple cases (audience being in a consistent location with respect to the projector) our software does the same thing that our software has done for the past 25 years, and even the same thing that all software prior to ours would have done had done too.

    For more complex cases, Projection Zones gives people the capability of serving a number of projection situations, even simultaneously -- and even gives you the capability of configuring the preview window to show multiple connected (for example Y-connected and even mirrored) laser projectors.

    Bottom line -- OF COURSE the preview window should always look just like it does in real life. We give you the power to make sure that happens.

    I'm not sure where the misconception is, but what I would say is "start with graphics -- get graphics looking correct first, then go from there".

    Paulo used his mobile phone to make a very rough video, where I show and discuss front-projection, rear-projection and then "both projections" and discuss what would need to change in order to accommodate all. It's probably the worst video we've ever made, but I hope the video is helpful...
    http://youtu.be/7TE55mVg6f0

    Bill

  6. #36
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    Bill I'll take this to pm as it was never my intention to ask for more than a sanity check publicly it's just there were so many questions it became hard to ask without giving some detail and unfortunately the odd person took this as an opportunity to flame. I don't really want the thread to descend further.

    Al.

  7. #37
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    Hi Bill,

    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    I'm sorry guys, but I'm having trouble even wrapping my head around the problem.
    I don't think there's a problem I think this was more of a subjective observation followed by some discussion and a few opinions. There was no residual issue (unless you view my subjective opinion regarding the intuitiveness of the default settings as being something to address).

    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    Bottom line -- OF COURSE the preview window should always look just like it does in real life. We give you the power to make sure that happens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    I'm not sure where the misconception is...
    I don't think it was a misconception. I think that it was rather ignorance (certainly on my part) and a subjective opinion regarding the default setup of the projection zones we were discussing.

    The dual front and rear projection scenario is my typical use case. Perhaps those who only project graphics or only project beams don't share this opinion, but I'm surprised that the default setup is front projection graphics and front projection beam shows. I (perhaps ignorantly) would have expected the default to be reversed for beam shows. Just my opinion (and not a criticism).

    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    Paulo used his mobile phone to make a very rough video, where I show and discuss front-projection, rear-projection and then "both projections" and discuss what would need to change in order to accommodate all. It's probably the worst video we've ever made, but I hope the video is helpful...
    http://youtu.be/7TE55mVg6f0
    The video was fine and illustrated the discussion topic well. My only comment is... unlike the scenario you describe of the audience moving from in front of the projector to behind it (which would place the projector in, for example, the middle of a room), the scenario I regular experience is with a projector centre stage. The audience simply does a 180' turn. Either they are viewing the beam show from the middle of the room, or they are viewing the projected pattern on the wall because they turn around.

    Even if this seems like a wacky setup (which I'm fine with ), I made the adjustments to my zones last week so that the preview accurately reflects this experience. And just like the other features of Pangolin software, it works really well

    Thank you Bill.

    @white-light - I noticed your post whilst I was composing/sending this. Just thought I'd help clarify my perspective for Bill

    .
    Last edited by taggalucci; 08-14-2012 at 02:31. Reason: Minor wording correction

  8. #38
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    Bill,

    I know I've said I'd keep this entirely to PM but I hadn't watched your video then.

    Your video at 1 min shows exactly the initial point I was trying to get across.

    There the preview screen which purports to show the audience view has the green vertical fan on the left , and on the left in the cue, and on the projection on wall on left when looking towards the wall away from your chair.

    THIS IS INCORRECT.





    The audience views beams in the other direction, looking back towards the laser.

    Imagine moving your chair all the way backwards so you have the back pressed against the wall and you're looking back towards the laser, the vertical green fan is now on your right hand side next to your right hand. The opposite to in the preview and cue which show it on the left!

    So the beam is being projected incorrectly in reverse to what is shown in the cue and preview.

    EDITED FOR BETTER EXPLANATION.
    Last edited by White-Light; 08-14-2012 at 01:28.

  9. #39
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    I dunno man all i see from that screen shot is Bill practicing Karate.

  10. #40
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    I think it's probably more that the preview is set up incorrectly for the audience view. Easily remedied though.
    http://www.facebook.com/SubsonicSystems
    http://www.frikkinlazors.co.uk

    You are using Bonetti's defense against me, ah?

    I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.

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