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Thread: PHOENIX LIVE or pangolin.

  1. #11
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    Well none of the other big players ,showtacle or phoenix, ect seem to be interested in the hobby market
    Or even hangout here and show an interest in whats going on.
    Pangolin does so they win. They help us we help them simples
    Smart move if you ask me , sooner or later some of the hobbists turn pro and take pangolin products with them.
    The others could learn a lot.
    I have tried german software before mamba black crashed all the time ,thier next effort was not much better
    Took five weeks to get it to work beacuse of a usb bug in it that did not agree with amd chipsets
    Lds ,overley complex to get stuff out of it , the live section was half done, and crap ,
    Phoenix live, now thats not bad, quite like it. Lsx ,now that good after andrew made it better,had lds been like that in the first place i might still have it.
    Moncha was ok but to basic in the beggining, and not wthout its problems
    Then i tried quickshow/ beyond, and never looked back, did everything i ever needed, yes it had a few bugs when it was young,as does all new software, but the thing is it was fixed in hours an not weeks like any euro based software vendor
    So at the end of the day each to thier own, eastern europeans like thier software ,the rest of the world likes pangolin
    When God said “Let there be light” he surely must have meant perfectly coherent light.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger1666 View Post
    Eastern europeans like thier software ,the rest of the world likes pangolin
    That is not at all true, I am British and now prefer Phoenix because it is more solid and that is the only reason.

    I am very experienced and had a hell of a lot of problems with pangolin since the add on to allow the QM2000 to be used on a networked. I have none of these problems with Phoenix.

    I have been looking at phoenix for many years and in the past year it has matured into a very nice to use professional system that was needed for many years. Sadly in the past we only had one choice until now.

    Better solutions come and go; and to go forward it is required to go along with the flow and change. Pangolin had its day at the top. Now somebody else is stepping in with a better more stable offering. Pangolins answer to market changes is to bring out the cheapest possible unit to target DJs which actually works against the bigger companies.

  3. #13
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    I was encountering several crash problems too back in the days when I was using old Pangolin stuff for live shows with FB3 interface (Livepro, and all the "old" suite, LAStudio etc). And honestly, despite being more stable, LD2000 suite was not great and practical at all to use, furthermore the GUI was really looking too old.

    With Beyond now it seems another story, still several small bugs there and there but improving days after days, and GUI looks not anymore like a previous century one, really a nice looking one They really did a good job on the entire software.

    Parallel to this, I have a complete solution from Showtacle (Fiesta NET PRO) which is very great and easy to use for live beam shows, and *rock* stable, never had a single crash or a problem after around 20 events. Although it has some limitations and isn't really usable to create graphical contents (I use Inkscape + ILD SOS for this), so Beyond seems the best on this side especially since the nice 3D part is available (apart from a few other solutions which are unafordable for common laserists).

  4. #14
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    I'd love to try the Fiesta.NET Pro but at ~£3k it's just far too expensive to contemplate alongside my financial commitment to Pangolin hard/software.

    Given that the cost of projectors is reducing significantly now, the cost of the control solution is becoming a greater percentage of the whole. Shame
    http://www.facebook.com/SubsonicSystems
    http://www.frikkinlazors.co.uk

    You are using Bonetti's defense against me, ah?

    I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.

  5. #15
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    Angry This is what passes for serious criticism?

    Quote Originally Posted by andyf97 View Post
    I am very experienced and had a hell of a lot of problems with pangolin since the add on to allow the QM2000 to be used on a networked.
    You do realize the problems with the QM-2000 running on a .net box were caused by Microsoft's undocumented changes to the TCP-IP stack, right? Right? And that Pangolin released a patch back in late 2009 that solved this problem, right? How "experienced" could you be if you don't know these basic facts?

    If you are having problems running Pangolin's gear, and your first reaction is to post about it here rather than calling Pangolin (who could have solved it for you), then that tells me you are here with an axe to grind - "experience" be damned.

    For the record, I don't use .net boxes. My QM's are plugged into desktop motherboards, and they run just fine. Maybe not quite as portable as a laptop, but it's damn sure more robust. I have *NEVER* had Showtime or Livepro lock up on me, and I've been using them as both a hobbyist and a professional since 2007. In contrast, my experience with Phoenix has been nothing short of abysmal.

    I downloaded the demo version of Phoenix right after the 2008 ILDA cruise, after it was so heavily promoted on the cruise. I couldn't keep it running for more than 5 minutes at a time. And when it crashed, it took the OS with it (WinXP SP3).

    Two years later, Paul Berthot showed up at a FLEM with his new Phoenix gear, all set to show us some new shows. He managed to play just 2 shows before Phoenix locked up and forced a reboot. After that, he never got another show to play to completion without his laptop crashing. (And he himself admitted that Phoenix was "not yet ready for prime time", but that he had gotten a good deal on it, so he figured he would toy with it just to see how it ran.) Several PL members were present to witness this, I might add.

    So go ahead and shill for Phoenix if you want. Who knows? Maybe they've even fixed some of the more obvious bugs. But don't try to tell us that Pangolin is unstable, when everyone here who uses Pangolin daily can attest to the contrary. (And especially since you seem reluctant to even contact Pangolin to have them help you fix the problem. No, you'd rather bitch about it here...)

    Adam

    PS: With regard to LA Studio that SBK mentioned, I never really used that software much, but I have heard some people complain that it crashes sometimes. Still, I don't know any professional who uses LA Studio for shows. It's free software that was given out almost as an afterthought, and it was not written by Pangolin. And as far as Beyond goes, it's still in Beta (2.0 doesn't come out until Summer), so I can live with the occasional bug there. And finally, I respect the amount of work White-Light has spent "banging away" on Pangolin's software, and I recognize that he is far more aware of it's abilities and limitations than Andyf97 will ever be. For one, he doesn't resort to insults to prove his point!

  6. #16
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    People come on, it isn't fair to blame Pangolin in the way Andy does but it isn't fair also to say Pangolin has no problems at all with there software.
    At the moment i have a ticket for a problem with there software, so saying it doesn't crash like white light does makes me doubt about his tests.
    I can reproduce the crash and i even can copy it from my system to someone else's system (ask Pieter Jan and ask Bill), and it has nothing to do with my laptop/os it appears all in the Beyond directory.
    Even Bill said he found a problem with it and he would fix it in the next build, so i'll wait till i got a message from him that it is solved.

    But it doesn't matter there are some problems with this software as long it's Beta, that's why Pangolin gives it away for free most of the time with a LD2000 system.
    And because it's Beta you and only you take the risk that something isn't working right and could crash.
    If your a pro then i don't understand why you use this product at a gig, you take a very high risk over there by using beta software.
    I'm only talking about Beyond because most of the time i'm using Beyond, i don't use live pro or Quickshow.

    I've also seen problems with the QM2000.net and the Auto negotiation settings, it seems the older nics getting more trouble communicating with the newer ones which will support the 1Gb speed.
    Most of this can be solved by settings the line speed and duplex to manual 100mb full duplex.
    It's not something special for Pangolin's QM2000.net product, i'm working in the IT business for years and see more products having trouble with it.
    Maybe that's why Buffo and maybe also White-Light had no problems with the QM2000 and Andy has with his QM2000.net?

    I totally agree Andy had to contact Pangolin but it seems something went wrong in there communication, they are two grown adults who should solve this.
    Let's help each other instead of using names and blame products, and if someone decides to swap product that's ok, we could discus there experience with that product and it keeps the products alive!!!

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by astatic View Post
    But it doesn't matter there are some problems with this software as long it's Beta, that's why Pangolin gives it away for free most of the time with a LD2000 system.
    And because it's Beta you and only you take the risk that something isn't working right and could crash.
    If your a pro then i don't understand why you use this product at a gig, you take a very high risk over there by using beta software.
    I'm only talking about Beyond because most of the time i'm using Beyond, i don't use live pro or Quickshow.
    A multi-watt Laser projector is dangerous and under no circumstances must any software that MIGHT contain bugs be used to control it.

    Astatc, you have no idea how many times we have reported problems to Mr Benner in the past, and his answers were always "our system to blame". No Lack of communication on my part. Just had enough bashing the head against the wall.

    In the past I did report a VERY SERIOUS QM2000 Network adapter problem to Bill Benner and even gave the solution to fix it. That problem left the QMboard in a very dangerous state. I gave up helping after not even a thanks was given.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by astatic View Post
    People come on, it isn't fair to blame Pangolin in the way Andy does but it isn't fair also to say Pangolin has no problems at all with there software.
    At the moment i have a ticket for a problem with there software, so saying it doesn't crash like white light does makes me doubt about his tests.
    I have found no programme crashes in a year as I said, only minor bugs which have been fixed by Alexey in many cases within hours, but equally I can't be expected to test and find everything single handed especially as bugs are sometimes system specific. All I can say is it's been absolutely rock solid stable for me and fast on both my laptop and desktop pc's.

    Quote Originally Posted by andyf97 View Post
    A multi-watt Laser projector is dangerous and under no circumstances must any software that MIGHT contain bugs be used to control it.
    Most programmers will tell you there's no such thing as bug free software as all but the simplest of software such as utilities, runs to millions of lines of code. Beyond even though its beta, is pretty much as good as it gets and trying to play the safety card Andy is just laughable because if you're doing any kind of professional public shows using any projector,and you're any kind of professional, then you should be using shutters and scan fail devices in the projectors themselves to protect the audience, and not relying on software or Windows or the power supply to your laptop as a safety device.


    Quote Originally Posted by andyf97 View Post
    ..you have no idea how many times we have reported problems to Mr Benner in the past, and his answers were always "our system to blame". No Lack of communication on my part. Just had enough bashing the head against the wall.
    Well maybe they were! It appears from Buffo's feedback that the bugs you're complaining about in Showtime were fixed 4 years ago in 2009!

    If you don't keep up-to-date with fixes it's hardly their fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by andyf97 View Post
    I gave up helping after not even a thanks was given.
    I have never known Bill not send a reply email saying "thanks I'll get Alexey to look at it".
    Last edited by White-Light; 01-03-2013 at 01:58.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by White-Light View Post
    I have found no programme crashes in a year as I said
    Of course because you stay at home playing. Testing needs to be done in the real world, not sitting next to your mum with a cup of tea and with your slippers on.

    Get out of your bedroom to the real world of events and concerts and the bugs will find you.

  10. #20
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    Andy,
    Just imagine, you would have instead started a thread in the product review section named "My excellent experience with Phoenix Live"
    Something like you did here
    Then you could have done a quick review on it's features, capabilities, interface, pros and cons, stability compared to competitive products.
    It would have helped Phoenix, it would have harmed Pangolin. And it would firm your reputation as a serious, reasonable professional.

    Just imagine, but that would just not be you, would it ?

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