Pangolin ScannerMax

[Bradfo69]

"Passionately dissatisfied?" ... That probably rules me out.

"Insanely curious of what "better" really looks and performs like?" ... Poster child.

[Pangolin]

So, I see you do get a little down time now and again.

Hehe. Just a little It's good to be back home for a while...

I don't doubt your engineer considered the mass of the mirror and that as a small component of the rotational mass the effect of reducing outboard inertia may prove to be "not worth the effort", But lightening the mirror in the way I describe will not induce resonances that were not present in the monolithic design.

Oh but it will! If you think about it long enough (or do the experiment), you'll discover what I mean. If you don't discover it by the time you stop by our office, I'll show you in Solid Works or just on a plain sheet of paper.

Also, by the way, I am "our engineer" most of the time. We also have Scott Zimmerman who was pictured on our Facebook page in front of the ScannerMAX booth, and we bring in additional consultants on an as-needed basis. As for myself, I've been working with galvanometer-based optical scanners for 25 years and will be glad to fill you in more about my background (if you're interested) when we meet in person.

The mirrors I am working on are the large 14mm wide slow scan mirrors for the 9mm aperture Eye Magic 4000's. With these mirrors the mass is not trivial. My approach is very similar to the complex engendered mirrors for industrial scanners which are often fabricated from SiC and pressed to give a centrally rigid and peripherally light weight structure. The trapezoid cross section I suggest, although less ambitious, is a lot less complex than a ribbed design. I'll keep you posted.

Yes please do. When you stop by I'll show you an absolutely beautiful-looking mirror we made for 10mm aperture out of Beryllium in 1998 that uses the technique you described. It was perfectly mass balanced and used technique you described. Although the mirror weighed practically nothing, and presented so little load on the servo that it was difficult to see a difference in tuning with and without the mirror, it still presented resonances, for reasons I'll share with you when you come by the office.

Sorry, Bill but I do not doubt this.

Hehe, and I am sorry but I do doubt it... Tom reports strong and growing sales everywhere. As I speak with people here in the USA who sell Cambridge scanners as well as Cambridge themselves, they report strong sales as well. I simply don't believe that a single mention of scanners coming from Pangolin, some day in the future, with specifications that I never mentioned up until our datasheet was published, and pricing and delivery dates never mentioned either -- that this would be enough to put a full stop or "dry up" sales of Tom's scanners, only from a single vendor?

And, the ad hominem? Come on. This is the same sales company that has been around for years. They didn't just now become "bad salespeople".

First let me say -- honestly -- that I don't even know who the salesperson or company is, and frankly I'm a bit surprised that Tom even sells through a channel in the US, rather than selling direct. However, although I don't know the particular salesperson or company, I do know a thing about sales, and what can happen to salespeople. My father was a sales person for the latter part of his life, and obviously Pangolin must be engaged in sales. I can tell you that people go through dry spells having nothing to do with the products they are selling, or their customers.

My comment was meant sincerely -- not as an attack. Anyone having sales troubles should check out Sandler Sales Training. That's who we've used and I can't say enough good things about them. They are all over the world, and you can find some of their YouTube videos here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa0S2iLUcJk

Hire me? Hmm... I am coming down to Florida at the end of this month to visit family I guess I could stop by... But seriously, I still would like a tour of the skunk works if and when that's possible.

Sure! You and everyone else are always welcome. We'll be happy to show you around the lab and give you a greater insight into what we do.

P.S. Do you have a release date and price These are the two burning questions that are on everyone's mind.

Well the very first thing that I always say about Pangolin products -- no matter what it is, what it does, etc. And I want everyone to heed this information and take it very seriously.

PANGOLIN PRODUCTS ALWAYS TAKE LONGER THAN WE THINK THEY WILL -- but they also wind up much better than we ever anticipated too.

This scanner represents a true reinvention of galvanometer-based optical scanners (not a "fake reinvention" as we see claimed from time to time in marketing hyperbole). I am in the midst of writing content for our web site to describe all of the new technology. I guess I'm going overboard, because so far the write-up is 44 pages and it doesn't even have three sections that I know will be needed. So at this point, it honestly looks like this will turn into another book with certain chapters excerpted for use on web pages.

But since this is a true reinvention, it takes time, and there are surprises along the way. Sometimes the surprises are in the form of materials that don't work the way the did on our other projects. Sometimes the surprises are in the form of suppliers who can't do what we need at all, or in a reasonable time. So we've had to overcome all of these things, and figure out how to build this kind of scanner. But the result looks quite promising. If you are able to interpret the specs, you'll see that we should be able to sustain the 16x efficiency gain over most conventional low-inertia galvanometers serving this industry. (Due to what I call the "fourth power law", to go twice the speed requires the generation of 16 times the heat, so it means you need a motor that is 16 times as efficient.) In addition to the motor being much more efficient, a stronger rotor is also needed. So our rotor is four times as strong as the strongest rotor in the industry, which is already stronger than most conventional galvos on the market today. Bottom line -- the performance is impressive, but it has taken a while to get there.

Delivery? It depends on who you are. We'll be delivering scanners to "early adopters" essentially immediately. These are folks who simply can not live without the performance. And it makes perfect sense that these guys would be our initial target. Our PR guy says we need case studies, so the most stringent uses will be the target of those studies.

After that, we'll be delivering to companies who make their own scanner amplifiers, including Kvant, HB and others. This is because -- as some have surmised -- we are not yet producing our own amplifier. Instead we're working with folks who already make their own amps, or who already have a lot of conventional amps. We are working with them, helping them to modify their scanner amps so they will work with our scanners. In the mean time, we are working on finishing up our own new amp, based on truly the latest technology available (once they're ready I will say more).

Price? We have not yet set a formal price. The early adopters will be receiving scanners for free for early testing and incorporation into their products. After that, we'll see what's up. After all, for people that have applications which simply can not be accomplished right now with current scanners, they will be willing to pay anything for scanners that allow them to accomplish their goals.

With that having been said, I hope it's clear that we try to make things a "no brainer", so superior performance at what everyone would agree is a reasonable price is a statement of our goal.

Best regards,

William Benner

[planters]

Oh but it will! If you think about it long enough (or do the experiment), you'll discover what I mean. If you don't discover it by the time you stop by our office, I'll show you in Solid Works or just on a plain sheet of paper.

OK, your on.

frankly I'm a bit surprised that Tom even sells through a channel in the US, rather than selling direct.

Me too! Frankly, up until recently,my emails to Eye Magic and Tom were simply not responded to and it is only through their US rep that my few questions were addressed (there is only one as far as I know, but let's not go there as I really don't care).

Ill be in touch.

[EyeMagic]

''my emails to Eye Magic and Tom were simply not responded to''


Strange. We respond to every email that comes in. Can you please resend ?


Thanks,

Tom Kamaras
EyeMagic

[dzodzo]

it will take some time but you'll figure it out: EMAIL IS NOT A GUARANTEED SERVICE, it's based on best-effort approach
if you need to make contact, it's still best to pick up the phone and make that call

[planters]

Strange. We respond to every email that comes in. Can you please resend ?

Tom,
This was a problem last year when I had a number of questions about your company's first release of the 7000 series scanners. I did receive your PM 2 days ago and thank you.

it will take some time but you'll figure it out: EMAIL IS NOT A GUARANTEED SERVICE, it's based on best-effort approach
if you need to make contact, it's still best to pick up the phone and make that call

I wish. And years ago this was definitely the case. But, now with so much international business across many time zones as well as personnel cuts @ many companies I believe response to email has become more important if not the standard.

[dsli_jon]

Heya Bill -

Thanks for the reply..

...And I do not intend to punish you or anyone else, but the ideal customers for these scanners are those who are passionately dissatisfied with what's out there now. If that's not you, then I have no problem counting you out as good candidate for now...

That's cool, as I said, we'd likely be inclined to 'wait and see how they schoon' before rushing to the order page, anyway.. Not out of some wierd 'spite', etc, simply because, again, a) we're not getting 'docked pay for flickering graphics', and we mostly-do graphics-heavy Corp-style shows... I mean, if the Client is delighted with their logo, ie: http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto..._7285832_n.jpg in-part because we've learned how to make it look-good, and in part because we're using the 'best of the best', currently, ie:, 6215s, or EMS (ie: for when we've got some 4000 pt logo the Client will just-not let us 'simplify' any-further, and it's got to be gigantic on some huge screen, with a very-short throw, therefore, large scan-angle, etc, etc) - why do we need to freak-out about getting something 'new and improved' - just because it-is? Like you said, the 'push' for these now, is for those that are bleeding-out the eyes because they need these naaouuu.. Certainly-until these are, indeed, fully-available as a 'revolution, across the board', both motor and amp, then for us, at least, we're content to 'wait and watch'... it's not like our only other option is 'Chivos'..

..And b) My 'point' in saying we're 'happy with what we have' is speaking more from the angle of I'm not going to run out and hang-myself, because it's now-clear that these, as a 'complete' solution, are still a ways-off from prime-time, as opposed to what was mis-concluded by not just a few people - *not* to imply that we won't be interested in some, especially for larger-apertures / beams, etc, which we do have a need to still see decently-high speeds for.... it's just not "OMGIWILLDIEIFIDONTGETTHESETOMORROW!!!' It was also puzzling to see the CT-amp, but you've cleared that up nicely.. makes perfect sense..

Fair 'nuff?
j

[mixedgas]

RE amps:

I was hoping for a updated Turbo-Track. However, using the stock amps is a good move in the short term. It eliminates a lot of rebuilding of projectors, cabling, and road cases.


Steve

[Pangolin]

it will take some time but you'll figure it out: EMAIL IS NOT A GUARANTEED SERVICE

Yes indeed, you took the words right out of my mouth. What frustrates me is when people think email IS guaranteed... For years we could not reach our best Japanese client, or our Florida dealer right down the street, or even my partner by direct email. Some other servers blocked email from our server. The worst thing was that we'd get bounce messages a full week later... So we'd have to remember who could not receive email from us, and send to them directly from Google. Around six months ago or so, we switched to two new servers, and now the problem *seems* gone. But I'm sure some people still don't receive our emails and we don't receive theirs -- only because that's the nature of email. It has nothing to do with desire to communicate, and everything to do with fallible technology! As Dzodzo said, if you don't hear back from us quickly, pick up the phone (tool free from North America) or check with us on Skype, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, or one of the other services.

Strange. We respond to every email that comes in. Can you please resend ?

Tom has always been pretty responsive for me, but things can always happen when email is involved...

Fair 'nuff?

Thanks for the additional points. It's all good. I am sure that most people are like you, and will sit on the sidelines for a while. Perhaps I would too. But the early adopters will be folks who are techno-freaks that absolutely want to play with the latest and greatest technology (whatever the perceived risks) and people with applications like Optical Coherence Tomography, who are burning up even the best conventional galvos available. For the OCT folks they don't have the luxury that lightshow people do, insomuch as adding a second set of scanners to reduce flicker. They're scanning what seems like a simple raster pattern with squarewave superimposed, but conventional galvos absolutely hate this kind of waveform. (Ours loves it!)

I was hoping for a updated Turbo-Track

Hi Steve, That design was released for production back in 1994 and based on work I had done in 1989. It was a great amp, and helped to sell a lot of G-120s while also working with 6800s. But wait until you see what we have come up with now. I'd certainly hope we have developed better ideas in the last 25 years

Bill

[mixedgas]

Quote:

Hi Steve, That design was released for production back in 1994 and based on work I had done in 1989. It was a great amp, and helped to sell a lot of G-120s while also working with 6800s. But wait until you see what we have come up with now. I'd certainly hope we have developed better ideas in the last 25 years

End Quote.

However T2s rarely fail, are still coveted, were the right size, had good connectors, still have good resale value, and the switchable dual tuning is a winner. It is the one piece of gear in the Arizona inventory that I do not have worry about.

So whatever you design for the new one, please consider making it T2 like. Bulletproof and and simple to use. While I'm sure most people on PL will beg you to make it ultra compact, I urge you to keep in mind small and fragile does not do well in touring operations. 1U or 2U racks are still very useful in fixed professional applications.

Ultra compact usually means connectors that are impractical.

Please keep SMD out of the output stages, as that is usually what I have to repair from field damage. I'm hinting at repair in the field, because the show must go on. The switchers let go, and then usually the op-amps survive, but the output stage is damaged.

Supporting long cables to the galvo, say 3 meters, while not the norm, is beneficial in the lab and for very small projectors. I'm well aware of I^2R losses and phase margins in long cables.

It would be nice if the analog inputs can take a prolonged short to the rails and survive

I have yet to see a under 200$ switcher that meets its MTBF on the data sheet. That is why I like packaged solutions. Also clients are great at finding all the statistical possibilites of miswiring the rails, so please keep that in mind as well.

Before many readers think that sounds overly harsh, remember one thing. The glass is not half full, the glass is not half empty, the glass was improperly specified, manufactured and tested in the first place. I've spent a lot of time on the phone supporting people who miswired amps and psus. If you have read PL for any length of time, you can see that often new users have trouble understanding the difference between ground and a negitive rail.

I do have galvos in the lab day job as well. Moving spectroscopy gratings instead of mirrors.

Steve