Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 55

Thread: "Beauty Lasers" on ebay!!! What?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    10

    Default

    I wanted to pass on some more info I just received from my buddy I mentioned earlier who is getting laser tattoo removing services from what I suspected was a Chinese made machine from a "medical technician" he met online. He shared this link with me:
    http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/84...Yag_Laser.html

    This is the machine he believes the "technician" is using. The setting were as follows during the treatment using the above machine:
    975 mj at 6 Hz with a "spot" (I assume spot diameter) of 3mm. The pulse counter read 263400 (sounds extremely high from what Steve's guess on the life expectancy of these things)
    Now, in the interest of passing along some info on what I learned about the treatments offered in most medical clinics is that optimal settings for successful black ink tattoo removal using a 1064 tip on a q switched Yag is as follows:
    3 J at 10Hz with a spot diameter of 6mm!

    HUGE difference! I imagine that is reflected in the overall comparative results as well!

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    10

    Default

    J...thanks for the reply. GREAT insight and thank you for the links! As for me, nope, not selling, not a manufacturer, just a guy with a question. In fact I'm a HS teacher and know nothing of the industry. I was simply surfing the net with a friend interested in buying a laser light show piece and stumbled across the product. I got my answer from Steve here and that's good enough for me. However, if I allow myself to entertain it further...I agree! How the hell does ebay reserve the right to profit from sales of products otherwise illegal in our country? Hmmm...capitalism seems to know no bounds!!

  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Authentic Asian food area of SoCal
    Posts
    2,473

    Default

    I don't think it is so much a problem with capitalism so much as it is that there are 100+ million items listed on ebay, daily. They are items that are sold by individuals so 100+ million items need to be moderated. I am sure it can be a daunting task especially if items are mislabled or the discriptions are not complete. Firearms and knives that exceed 3" are a no brainer for the moderators but lasers are a specific technology that they may not know enough about to moderate accurately. This isn't WalMart who knows exactly what they are selling because they, themselves, buy from their vendors and sell in their stores/online. I could be wrong but that seems to make the most sense to me why some of this stuff slips through the cracks. This is where ebay is community moderated. People like Steve and Jon and anyone else who warns ebay about these items may actually help the community. Also complaining to other agencies helps stop these things at the ports as well. Customs has done a nice job stopping Wicked Lasers from coming in but they still get through here and there. The more we complain and warn, the more this stuff gets flagged.
    Those who fail to grasp art are the ones who criticize it.

  4. #24
    mixedgas's Avatar
    mixedgas is offline Creaky Old Award Winning Bastard Technologist
    Infinitus Excellentia Ion Laser Dominatus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    A lab with some dripping water on the floor.
    Posts
    9,186

    Default

    One thing that is really missing on those designs. Maximum body current to a bed ridden patient needs to be less then 100 microamperes for safety. This has to be tested under a wide variety of conditions including partial submergence of the hand piece. So there is one major cost difference, the lack of safety testing and FDA quality assurance methods during manufacture.

    I am the first to agree medical costs need to come down, but "Muntzing" a medical laser so you can have a cost 20 times less then a baseline American medical laser is nuts from a safety or liability point of view.

    Steve

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Detroit, USA
    Posts
    558

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mixedgas View Post
    I am the first to agree medical costs need to come down
    Steve
    I second that, our healthcare costs are out of control.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,050

    Default

    ... could it be, the IR-diodelaser modules I'm assembling from salvaged pumping 975nm-diodes are much better suited for medical treating?

    I'm using them for laser-cutting and removing paint - here are some of the diodes opened for comparison: http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...ghlight=viktor

    They are much easier to control - I'm driving them with constant currents and CW-powers from 0.1W to 20W, 'pulsing' rates of up to some ten kHz (they can perform MHz) and pulse times from some microseconds to milliseconds or CW ...

    Viktor
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Vektortest-Plexi 1Watt.jpg  

    Aztek1-Gravur-gereinigt.jpg  

    Aztek1-Gravur.jpg  


  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    2,147,488,805

    Laser Warning

    Quote Originally Posted by mike1234 View Post
    I'm not doubting the FDA would have an issue with any or all of it.
    Ok, so you agree that the unit is plainly not up to the standards set for medical lasers (which, of course, is the same standard that also applies to light show lasers - namely 21 CFR 1040.)

    I'm posing the question: "Why?"
    See, this is what doesn't make sense, both to me and others in this thread. You just said that you don't doubt that the FDA would disapprove this unit, and now you're saying you don't know why? Then why would you think they would have a problem with it in the first place?

    Without re-typing a ton of regulations, along with didactic explanations of the terms used and why they are applicable, the best thing I can offer you is an invitation to have a look for yourself. Here's a link to 21 CFR 1040.10, which defines different kinds of laser products and sets forth a whole bunch of performance standards for them.

    Once you've skimmed through that, take a look at this link to 21 CFR 1040.11 (a much smaller document), which tells you exactly which parts of 1040.10 you need to pay particular attention to if you are selling a medical laser.

    Now look back at that product and see how many problems you see. Better yet, go to regulations.gov and see if you can find the manufacturer's variance for the supplier. (Hint: they don't have one...) And since you are now familiar with 21 CFR 1040, you'll understand why not having a manufacturer's variance prior to introducing a laser product into commerce is a problem.

    Take a moment and explain to a newbie what the deal is. Do the Chinese know something we don't or in all our purist ways are they just cutting corners to get a product on the market cheap?
    What do you think?

    The Chinese are excellent at producing things cheaply. Sure, their labor costs are lower, and their tax structure is different, but that's only part of the issue.

    You can't build something for 1/10th the cost of a US supplier without cutting some major corners. Some might argue that cutting corners isn't a big deal, but I submit that when it comes to a medical device, cutting corners is a very big deal.

    Either way, it's in interesting question from a technical perspective, right?
    No. It's an illegal product, and a probable public health threat. That's not interesting, it's very troubling. This is why you're getting the reaction you've seen in this thread.

    As an example, if I started selling used motor oil in a bottle as an oral medicine that would cure cancer, would the discussion over the efficacy of that treatment also be an interesting question to you? Or would you simply be appalled that I was selling an untested and potentially harmful product while claiming it was medically safe?

    This sort of thing is not new, and for those of us who play by the rules, it's disheartening to see others skate by while clearly flaunting those same rules. (I'm not including you in that grouping, mind you; just trying to explain where the animosity is coming from.)

    Adam

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    3,513

    Default

    I for one am completely opposed to restrictions on access to these devices. I feel that with the exception of some actually dangerous substances (I will not type these words on this forum thanks to the OTB- think HAL, "Dave") an adult should have access to an electronic device. He can use it on himself, extract components or re-purpose it, but where I believe society should draw the line is where he misrepresents himself to others as qualified or the equipment as "certified" or by consensus as acceptably safe.

    As an example, if I started selling used motor oil in a bottle as an oral medicine that would cure cancer, would the discussion over the efficacy of that treatment also be an interesting question to you? Or would you simply be appalled that I was selling an untested and potentially harmful product while claiming it was medically safe?
    My problem, I am so cynical of those armies of bureaucrats that make these determinations. Of course I would be appalled, but yes let's ask that question ourselves before we delicate that decision to others. They are not any smarter.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    2,147,488,805

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by planters View Post
    I am so cynical of those armies of bureaucrats that make these determinations. Of course I would be appalled, but yes let's ask that question ourselves before we delicate that decision to others. They are not any smarter.
    Maybe they are not ALL smarter, but some of them most definitely are. The FDA employs lots of bureaucrats, to be sure, but they also employ doctors, engineers, and other technicians, some of whom are quite intelligent. Not every regulation is written by a clueless bureaucrat, and there are some good reasons underpinning many of the rules we have to follow.

    I for one am completely opposed to restrictions on access to these devices. I feel that with the exception of some actually dangerous substances an adult should have access to an electronic device.
    I don't.

    I don't want my redneck neighbor experimenting with a legacy Therac-25 that he bought on E-bay. With my luck, he'd have the damned thing pointed at my house when he energized it.

    Who is to decide what is "dangerous"? Case in point: you own a laserscope, and clearly have the knowledge and mindset needed to operate it safely. So do I, for that matter, despite the fact that I haven't even fired mine yet. However, another (former) member here *cough* ProDJallen *cough* also owns a laserscope, yet he obviously does not have the knowledge or mindset needed to operate it safely.

    So is the laserscope dangerous? The FDA says yes. And I agree, because in untrained hands, it is.

    I'm glad that there are regulations that restrict the use of laserscopes (and other dangerous medical products) in commerce (even if the enforcement of those rules is spotty at best). We all love to bitch and moan about the FDA, and I completely agree that they could (and should) be doing a better job, but in the end we're still better off with them in place.

    The alternative, an anarchist free-for-all, has the potential to be far worse. (See: food adulteration in China for several chilling examples)

    Adam

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    3,513

    Default

    Maybe they are not ALL smarter, but some of them most definitely are.
    Sorry Adam,maybe I am being arrogant, but I have been around for a pretty long time and in my experience the bureaucrats are where they are for a reason.

    Not every regulation is written by a clueless bureaucrat
    No, not every one but far, far too many.

    Your red neck neighbor can hurt you REAL BAD with a sling shot and a ball bearing or his pit bull or his spent motor oil as well as his CN tattoo remover. Rather than an endless list of restrictions on potentially harmful things he needs to have a realistic fear of the consequences of ANY reckless behavior. I'm not suggesting you get around to dusting off your LS in preparation for a war, but over the last few decades we have redirected the responsibility for our actions to limitations on our freedoms by numerous unseen agencies. And as we have seen recently, the consequence has more than just the potential to be terrible.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •