Page 1 of 8 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 79

Thread: DAC & Software Choices..... getting harder the more I read!

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    1,279

    Default DAC & Software Choices..... getting harder the more I read!

    When I started building my first laser a few years ago I had zero knowledge of lasers and with a little research quickly came to the conclusion that QS and an FB3 was the best choice for a beginner. I think it was probably a good choice.

    Now I've started reading more about the limitations of the FB3 DACs (API not shared) I am feeling pretty confused with my options.

    I am considering Beyond software for the live show capabilities but does Beyond support other DACs such as the Etherdream, which to me looks like a no-brainer in DAC choice?

    I also want to use LSX and Laser CAM software, so this makes purchasing any further FB3s out of the question.

    I understand that this subject has cropped up in many incarnations on the forum but I'm struggling to make a decision.

    Based on your experience, what would you suggested to someone starting out wanting to become professional?


    Keith

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    East Sussex, England
    Posts
    5,248

    Default

    It all depends on what you want to do really.

    You've said you want to use LSX and Lasercam so you are going to need some form of compatible DAC, and the Pangolin products are ruled out simply by this requirement.
    What is the driver for wanting to use LSX over any other piece of laser software? Lasercam is pretty obvious, but LSX not so much...

    You also say you want to become a professional. What sort of shows and content are you looking at providing?

    If you look around at what 'most' laser show companies are using, you will see a predominance of Pangolin, Moncha/Fiesta and Phoenix (now owned by Pangolin). That's not to belittle LSX, it is clearly very powerful, but for one reason or another it has not hit the pro show market like the other offerings - maybe because thats not its target market?

    Ultimately, you may end up buying more than 1 platform to get everything you want. Bear in mind that a pro company will likely have multiple projectors these days, and therefore multiple DACs (I've got 4 FB3 now) so at some point you may have to make a commercial decision on where you spend your money.

    Also consider longevity, of both hardware/software platforms, and the company you invest in.

    So, I'm a self confessed Pangolin user, having owned a few other DACs in my quest to find the right one and save money. I very quickly learned (after wasting some money!) that you really need to spend some money to get good control. And Pangolin always felt like it had a certain amount of stability behind it, that I didn't get from some of the other offerings. Thats not to say they also don't have it, its just the feeling I got.
    Frikkin Lasers
    http://www.frikkinlasers.co.uk

    You are using Bonetti's defense against me, ah?

    I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    1,279

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by norty303 View Post
    It all depends on what you want to do really.

    You've said you want to use LSX and Lasercam so you are going to need some form of compatible DAC, and the Pangolin products are ruled out simply by this requirement.
    What is the driver for wanting to use LSX over any other piece of laser software? Lasercam is pretty obvious, but LSX not so much...

    You also say you want to become a professional. What sort of shows and content are you looking at providing?
    The drive for LSX are the phenomenal abstracts that I have seen produced with it. Part of my intended market (currently something I do for fun) are festivals, where artistic content goes down really well. Are there any other comparable abstract designers out there?

    Although I want to push my content towards the artistic, I will be doing live shows alongside DJs - probably the bread and butter to begin with.

    If you look around at what 'most' laser show companies are using, you will see a predominance of Pangolin, Moncha/Fiesta and Phoenix (now owned by Pangolin). That's not to belittle LSX, it is clearly very powerful, but for one reason or another it has not hit the pro show market like the other offerings - maybe because thats not its target market?

    Ultimately, you may end up buying more than 1 platform to get everything you want. Bear in mind that a pro company will likely have multiple projectors these days, and therefore multiple DACs (I've got 4 FB3 now) so at some point you may have to make a commercial decision on where you spend your money.
    I suppose that although I want to go pro, I don't want to be 100% commercial, which may be where LSX differs from the others? I suspect that that I will have to be commercial before heavily artistic, although I have plenty of festival opportunities - even before I have a decent projector (currently all TTL).

    Also consider longevity, of both hardware/software platforms, and the company you invest in.
    Good point. Pangolin looks extremely well supported.

    So, I'm a self confessed Pangolin user, having owned a few other DACs in my quest to find the right one and save money. I very quickly learned (after wasting some money!) that you really need to spend some money to get good control. And Pangolin always felt like it had a certain amount of stability behind it, that I didn't get from some of the other offerings. Thats not to say they also don't have it, its just the feeling I got.
    Yes, I feel the same about Pangolin regarding quality and reliability. I don't doubt that at all. Maybe I'll be spending more than I thought on DACs in the long run, so the more creative side of business will have to wait.

    Thank you for your reply.

    Keith

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    My momentum is too precisely determined :S
    Posts
    1,777

    Default

    A QM2k will work with LSX, though it's insanely expensive.
    From what I hear on the forum, Beyond might be better for live use, but it's an order of magnitude more expensive than LSX. Even without having experience with Beyond, I dare say the price/quality ratio is much higher than LSX, simply because of its ridiculous cost!

    I'm a heavy LSX user. It's great in multiple ways, and once you get the hang of it, you'll appreciate the freedom it gives you to do things. The caveat here is, "once". I admit it takes some time to get used to the software. There is a learning curve, and some people get stuck in the middle. You need to spend some time to fully discover how you can use the software in the way you want. I think this is the reason it isn't very popular by professionals: you need to spend time learning it, and use your brain power, while with QS it's more random button mashing (not sure how Beyond works, so see what others say). Another reason might be of course, the professionals all have Pangolin, but they locked up their hard & software in such a way to not allow any other package being used simultaneously, and no one wants to swap their already existing, very expensive kit with some new software that might look a bit scary :P

    Maybe a good middle way is Fiesta/Moncha? Their hardware is compatible with LSX, and their software is easier to use. Though of course, it won't work with an etherdream.

    Regarding stability, in my experience LSX is very stable software. It rarely crashes, and when it does, it's during show design. I have never witnessed a crash during an actual show. I could let it run for eight hours straight without any problem. It's also very fast to start up, takes little memory, and depending on what you do with it, processor requirements aren't high. I recommend a multi core machine, as LSX will spread out tasks across cores. I noticed that during a temporary freeze-up, for example when you load in all the installed fonts, the laser output will continue to run smoothly.

  5. #5
    mixedgas's Avatar
    mixedgas is offline Creaky Old Award Winning Bastard Technologist
    Infinitus Excellentia Ion Laser Dominatus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    A lab with some dripping water on the floor.
    Posts
    9,905

    Default

    LSX of the correct level has ILDA export. Some Pangolin products have ILDA import. Job Jobbed.

    My little 125$ RIYA DAC kicks ass for what it is, I doubt you would be disappointed with a RIYA and LSX.

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 08-16-2013 at 04:42.
    Qui habet Christos, habet Vitam!
    I should have rented the space under my name for advertising.
    When I still could have...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    1,279

    Default

    QM2K is a little steep. Do you know why LSX works with this and not the FB3?

    One of my concerns - as you pointed out is the locking out to an expensive system. Something I could not avoid with photography!

    Hmm, I think the decision may take some time!

    Steve - Maybe that's the way forward! Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by colouredmirrorball View Post
    A QM2k will work with LSX, though it's insanely expensive.
    From what I hear on the forum, Beyond might be better for live use, but it's an order of magnitude more expensive than LSX. Even without having experience with Beyond, I dare say the price/quality ratio is much higher than LSX, simply because of its ridiculous cost!

    I'm a heavy LSX user. It's great in multiple ways, and once you get the hang of it, you'll appreciate the freedom it gives you to do things. The caveat here is, "once". I admit it takes some time to get used to the software. There is a learning curve, and some people get stuck in the middle. You need to spend some time to fully discover how you can use the software in the way you want. I think this is the reason it isn't very popular by professionals: you need to spend time learning it, and use your brain power, while with QS it's more random button mashing (not sure how Beyond works, so see what others say). Another reason might be of course, the professionals all have Pangolin, but they locked up their hard & software in such a way to not allow any other package being used simultaneously, and no one wants to swap their already existing, very expensive kit with some new software that might look a bit scary :P

    Maybe a good middle way is Fiesta/Moncha? Their hardware is compatible with LSX, and their software is easier to use. Though of course, it won't work with an etherdream.

    Regarding stability, in my experience LSX is very stable software. It rarely crashes, and when it does, it's during show design. I have never witnessed a crash during an actual show. I could let it run for eight hours straight without any problem. It's also very fast to start up, takes little memory, and depending on what you do with it, processor requirements aren't high. I recommend a multi core machine, as LSX will spread out tasks across cores. I noticed that during a temporary freeze-up, for example when you load in all the installed fonts, the laser output will continue to run smoothly.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    244

    Default

    I had similar choices for similar reasons, although I'm still at the Quickshow stage with an FB3, a possible Beyond upgrade at some point? I also bought an easylase off ebay for use with Lasercam. They sometimes come up quite cheap...

  8. #8
    mixedgas's Avatar
    mixedgas is offline Creaky Old Award Winning Bastard Technologist
    Infinitus Excellentia Ion Laser Dominatus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    A lab with some dripping water on the floor.
    Posts
    9,905

    Default

    The lack of a SDK for FB3 is the issue why Qm2000 is accessible and FB3 is not.
    There is a SDK for the Qm2000

    Its really not in Pangolin's interest to release a SDK for FB3

    There is supposed to be a scripting language coming forth, according to one Pangolin fan, but as yet it is not used or widely available. This would allow "calling" the FB3 from a program by passing text commands, if it is anything like past Pangolin scripting.

    The above mere statements will start a painful set of posts from Pangolin's closest supporters, and LSX or Open File supporters who argue Pangolin does not allow certain kinds of ILDA file export, so just let it be...


    Pangolin comes with at least 20 years of clip-art and stock shows, so they have a good reason for locking content. The counter argument is you may not be able to export content you create with your Pangolin, except to another Pangolin user.

    Apples and Oranges to me, I now own both, and had working Qm16s for many years.

    My inventory includes RIYA, QM2000, and Etherdream, although I have not got around to using the later.

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 08-16-2013 at 06:57.
    Qui habet Christos, habet Vitam!
    I should have rented the space under my name for advertising.
    When I still could have...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    East Sussex, England
    Posts
    5,248

    Default

    The drive for LSX are the phenomenal abstracts that I have seen produced with it. Part of my intended market (currently something I do for fun) are festivals, where artistic content goes down really well. Are there any other comparable abstract designers out there?
    I think what you've seen is someone who is very good at creating abstracts, who happens to use LSX, rather than content that is the exclusive domain of LSX.
    From what I've had a play with, and what I've been told, the Beyond abstract generator has all of the tools required to do similar things.
    I suspected this was your driver from your original post, but you can't make assumptions.

    If abstracts are a large part of what you want to be doing, then I would think you are looking at Pangolin or LSX. I don't think Moncha has abstracts (await to be corrected on that), Fiesta might do, but is expensive in comparison.

    The rest comes down to what you want to do the rest of the time for beam shows in a live environment. Again, I think LSX can do this, and in some novel ways, but Beyond is doing it more naturally based on what I hear from users of LSX on the forum.

    Content sharing is only an issue if you want to actually share content in a potable format.
    Frikkin Lasers
    http://www.frikkinlasers.co.uk

    You are using Bonetti's defense against me, ah?

    I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    5,704

    Default

    @ Steve, at the risk of being a huge Pangolin Fan ( ), the scripting language is in Beyond and has been around for some time. Its not widely used because no-one much has taken the time to learn to use it. Norty is one of the few people I've heard say they are using it. I've just made some suggestions to make it a little easier to use although whether or not they're adopted is not down to me. It's not hard once you understand how it works - some initial confusion can come from identifying headers from script from help text but once you've learn the script format, it becomes clear immediately. My suggestion goes towards aiding that. If you've ever programmed it probably immediatey is clear. I understand it's almost unlimited although whether or not you can use it to do what you're suggesting Steve, I really don't know as I don't know its full extent. There are many fixed commands provided as standard, but I believe also there is a possibility of custom script.

    On the abstraction side, Beyond has an abstract generator not disimilar to that found in previous pro level Pangolin products, so it is powerful. I'm sure Pangolin abstract users can give you more info, I generally don't do abstracts so its all a mystery to me although I do believe part of the secret is to combine abstracts and synths to get access to many additional effects. That said Swami does some fantastic effects with LSX. The question is one of how much you can extract from either. Swamis skill with lsx is exceptonal but the extra you get from LSX comes down a lot to the maths so I'm led to believe. I'll leave the lsx users to tell you how easy his level is to achieve.

    Ultimately the choice is going to be yours and one of where your priorities lie. Alternatively, you could just do both as many others have!
    Last edited by White-Light; 08-16-2013 at 08:08. Reason: Cross posted with Norty.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •