Police helicopters are allowed below 400 ft, as are air ambulances. Downtown Atlanta definitely has police helicopters and medivac units. There's the problem. (Casey Stack covered this exact case in his laser safety lecture back in 2010, btw...)
Also, don't forget about the laser exclusion zones around airports...
Adam
Dang, I had to Google IANAL to figure out that particular acronym!
I am not a lawyer either, but am a retired military pilot...
Without getting too involved in the different criteria ~
FAA-controlled airspace actually originates at the surface around major airports like Atlanta.
Lateral dimensions are depicted on the applicable flight sectional charts.
If laser activity is visible from the within controlled airspace - even if the lasers are terminated - and a NOTAM has NOT been issued for the said laser activity, then there is a strong possibility the laser activity could be reported to the FAA, and then to law enforcement.
Or, maybe not...
RR
Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
1979.
Sweet.....
Small query... I guess a NOTAM is always issued in writing, but were they (or are they) ever agreed informally during spoken discussion via telephone, and issued on a short-term basis, presumably still in writing after the discussion of an event planned? I'm not in the US, just trying to clarify what might be a very warped memory of old Usenet discussions. Also, were they based on local, or general criteria?
No, They have to be issued in advance for a laser display. This is why FAA likes 30 days and preferably 90 days prior notice to implement a NOTAM. It takes time for a message to propagate down to the pilots and flight planning groups. Pilots have to go online or call ahead to be made aware of NOTAMs. Unless they work for a large commercial concern (Airlines), no one will notify them via email, phone, etc. Reading the NOTAM list is voluntary. IF they have an incident, and they did not read the NOTAM, only then do they have a problem.
The Instant airspace restrictions are "POP-UP" TFRs, and those are reserved for Presidential Events, Major Civic Emergencies , Natural Disasters etc. Those carry weight if violated by an aircrew. Flight service stations and controllers will try to inform a pilot if he/she gets close to a TFR area. I have had one of my shows declared as a Temporary Flight Restriction, and that was due to the size of the event. It would have gotten a TFR anyways, because of the huge crowds, pyro, and the fact that it was not long after 9-11.
However, much airspace is uncontrolled, so if your show is in Class G airspace, there is no guarantee the pilot will have ever bothered to look for NOTAMs prior to flight.
Commercial and Military pilots will look before every flight, but there is no guarantee any other pilot will.
Just having everything terminated does not satisfy ANY federal requirements, for reporting, when outdoors. If its is bright enough to be seen from the air, it will be reported by a pilot who sees it. Memo after memo has been sent to pilots by the FAA on reporting laser hazards when seen, while airborne. FAA may wave certain requirements if a show is terminated, but that has to be negotiated.
FAA has been very clear on this, they de-facto do not relinquish ANY control of airspace for anything, even model aircraft. They allow shared use, but when push comes to shove they are going to do what they want to keep things safe. A local sheriff's deputy is not going to listen to you explaining why your legal, if FAA asks for your event to be closed. He'll find a way to close you down. After all, from his point of view, he has a pretty good level of sovereign immunity when he acts. He will err on the side of caution.
This is why you hire a spotter to look for aircraft during your show, after its NOTAMed. The spotter needs some level of training and has to be designated in writing. Your event also needs two means for the FAA to communicate with you via voice, ie one land line and one cell phone. Traditionally spotters are required to be "sterile" meaning they have no other duty or activity during laser operations to distract them. 100% concentration on the task at hand is required.
BTW,
The famous document on FAA relations to model aircraft does not have the force of law behind it, it is just a memo sent to the public. It can be revoked at any time.
Steve
Last edited by mixedgas; 09-04-2013 at 04:57.
Qui habet Christos, habet Vitam!
I should have rented the space under my name for advertising.
When I still could have...
Now, if Buffo is coming over to visit, I'm not going to hesitate scanning on the side of my house with two watts, terminated. I'm going to hesitate if I borrowed a 10 watt for the evening and do a un-terminated beam show. But if I'm doing a public event, I'm going to look at complying with the rules.
Simply because I fear attorneys, and have no funds or the time to mount a legal defense.
BTW, The university/school exemption comes with a Gotcha. The university still falls under ANSI Z136. It is up to the university to enforce the rules on campus. Therefore if the university has a radiation safety officer, the use of the laser on campus falls under their discretion. Most LSOs are going to ask that you follow the standard CDRH rules etc.
Steve
Qui habet Christos, habet Vitam!
I should have rented the space under my name for advertising.
When I still could have...
Thanks for the full detail, Steve. Now, please don't jump down my throat when I mention again that I am a punk, there's a point to this. In the early 80's, when I was 17, there was a huge squatted gig in an old Boys Brigade centre, then derelict. Disorder, Chaos UK, several other bands. Whole barrels of beer and cider... When the fire brigade and police turned up at the door wanting to see if they should close us down by force, at one point they apparently wanted to speak to whoever was doing the electrics. That was me, and when people came running for me, I went to the door and explained what I was doing. And they let us continue. It helped that I was sober enough to explain clearly and directly how I was looking after a fused and insulated feed separate from the existing (decrepit) wiring, and so forth. The point being that they knew as well as I did that it was probably not legal, but despite that they didn't care, all they were concerned with was that someone (me) was there focussing on keeping it safe. It meant they didn't have to worry, so they walked away. So I understand that safety, rather than the law, takes precedence whichever way we look at it. That said, they were probably also weighing up the safety of taking on a few hundred or more drunken people by force too.
One small query remaining for me... If NOTAMs are propagated to control crews, wouldn't that be as far as they formally go? You mentioned that most pilots have to check for themselves. This is why I mentioned in an earlier post that point about the controllers being able to give calm answers to pilots who ask about things they see. A pilot who did not get a NOTAM list before flight might find themselves in that position, but if the thing was local, a pilot redirecting unexpectedly to other airspace might be in that situation anyway. Again, the idea being that safety is all, and if they ARE kept safe by all involved, then presumably they won't always waste their time with law. Law usually only works after the fact, so in many cases might be like shutting a door after a horse bolts. Pointless if there is only one horse.
Stuka, if you're around, I'm interested in your take on this too, specifically what happens when you see unexpected stuff.
Cool discussion -
It's been while since I gave this much thought to FAA regulations; starting to have flashbacks...
NOTAMS are specific to the time, location, and nature of the advisory or restriction.
Although it's up to the pilots to voluntarily check NOTAMS, they ARE responsible for following any restrictions for the duration any applicable NOTAMs are in effect.
"Ignorance" is not a justifiable alibi if an incident or violation occurs and the pilot is at fault.
(Keep in mind that some NOTAMS are advisory in nature, not regulatory, and are there mainly to inform the aircrews of possible hazards or activity at specific times. Some of the advisory NOTAMS I have seen include model airplane activity, lasers, fireworks, and even tethered balloons...)
As Steve mentioned, commercial and military pilots are always going to be briefed on the latest NOTAMS, since acknowledging them is a routine part of filing flight plans.
Additionally, most general aviation FBO's are pretty well equipped with all the automated whistles and bells these days, and would have all the latest NOTAMS readily available.
Even general aviation pilots flying from more remote locations (or during non-duty hours for small FBO's) can get all the information they need with a toll-free phone call.
Unless there is a MAJOR screw up on the part of ATC (pretty rare actually), controllers will always do their best to warn off any general aviation aircraft that looks like it might be preparing to violate a NOTAM (or permanently) restricted area, or inform them of activity in the area from a NOTAM advisory. If an aircraft is under positive ATC control (receiving commo and direction guidance), the controllers will vector the aircraft around any NOTAM-restricted airspace, or if the NOTAM is advisory in nature, will notify the aircraft of the activity specified in the NOTAM.
There is actually very little true "uncontrolled" airspace in the continental US (especially east of the Mississippi), but there are a LOT of overlapping airspace "classes" with varying degrees of regulations and restrictions.
Unfortunately for laserists, the areas that are likely to draw crowds to laser shows (population centers) are also the same areas that are likely to be covered in some sort of controlled airspace.
Even if the airspace is "uncontrolled", spotlighting or lasing an aircraft is STILL illegal, and since perception is everything these days...
SO, it's always best to err on the side of safety & regulation for outdoor shows, and get the proper FAA clearances in place.
As a pilot, whether or not a "sighting" would be reported to the FAA would depend on the situation.
Most experienced pilots would be able to tell the difference between a laser show in progress, and some idiot with a handheld high-power laser or spotlight trying to "tag" aircraft.
Either way, if the aircrew is in touch with ATC, the report of a laser "violation" - whether perceived, or otherwise - could be instantaneous to ATC, and depending on the severity of the incident, could lead to an immediate call relayed by ATC to area law enforcement. If the incident takes place when an aircraft is under positive ATC control, a timely call from the aircrew could be extremely effective in pinpointing the location of the offending laser ~ and is proving to be quite effective, based on the incidents with related arrests that have been reported over the last year or so.
And everything Steve said in #15 and #16...
Randy
Last edited by Stuka; 09-04-2013 at 16:23.
RR
Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
1979.
Sweet.....
Good stuff. Thanks. I'll save this in case people ever ask me as they used to sometimes. I didn't know, but I always warned against careless use outside of even a laser pointer, saying that if they saw you, they'd likely know exactly where it was, and that the wielder would likely know within a few minutes at most whether they were in deep shit or not. Which was a comment that usually stopped people pushing the point. Anyway, I'll save this thread for something to show in the unlikely event I ever get asked again.
fuck all this laser shit just get a DLP projector and an NES, problem solved