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Thread: Atlanta-area projectionists? Want to make an NES emulator?

  1. #1
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    Default Atlanta-area projectionists? Want to make an NES emulator?

    I've written some simple games with my projector:

    * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x034jVB1avs
    * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XTi-jf-ans

    I want to draw more geometry by combining the optics of several projectors at once. The process would entail the creation of a graphics engine that schedules and dispatches the drawing of each frame to the individual projectors. Objects clustered together would be topologically sorted and assigned to the same projector. Some geometric/perspective correction would also take place.

    I only have one projector and DAC, and I'm going to need help with the entire scale of the project. Is there anyone in the Atlanta area with laser hardware and/or programming experience interested in joining this project?

    I'd like to build an (S)NES emulator or something along those lines...
    lasers.iobrand.io • bt at brand dot io • echelon at github (has some laser projector codes in Python and Rust)

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    I literally LOLed at the "<= DANGER!"

    dude if you make a laser (S)NES emulator you would be my hero

    no idea how you could make something like a (S)NES game into vector and have it still be recognizable but hey if you pull it off +1 internet cookie for you

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    Um... ok. Guess I need to jump in here and be the dick but, before pursuing any more work on your project, there are a couple of things you need to do in order to keep yourself financially solvent and out of silver bracelets. Especially in a major metropolitan area like Atlanta. I think it's fair to say that your projector is over 5mW and you're using it outside. And you've supplied wonderful evidence of that and even who you are, that would stand up in court by posting it on YouTube.

    Before dragging your stuff out of the basement again, I heartily suggest you read this before doing anything else:

    http://www.photonlexicon.com/wiki/index.php?title=FAA

    You also better be certain you get your variance from the CDRH to approve your projector (they'll love your emission sticker) and approve your shows.

    Right now you're pretty much blatently using an illegal laser projector outdoors without filing necessary FAA paperwork 30 days prior to firing it at the billboard, high rise hotel or the Waffle House. Talk about attracting attention of the authorities! It looks like the Melia for example falls within 10 nautical miles of both Hartsfield-Jackson International AND Dobbins AFB... with Dobbins being the closer of the two. You don't want a military pilot pissed off...

    Just trying to keep you out of jail or out of a financial mess....

    (Cool idea and vid tho! )
    Last edited by Bradfo69; 08-29-2013 at 03:23.

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    variance would not matter if he is not participating in any commerce...

    FAA is gray area as it's terminated IIRC

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    Quote Originally Posted by flecom View Post
    variance would not matter if he is not participating in any commerce...
    Is that true? As far as I know photons don't travel any more safely based purely on whether they're being paid for or not.

    FAA is gray area as it's terminated IIRC
    That's surely the bit that matters. As far as I know, if you could be sure that a line of sight between you and a church tower wall a quarter of a mile away could not be passed by a human head, or outstretched hand with a mirror in it, or an aircraft, you could use any power you wanted if when the Men in Black came hammering, you could demonstrate that your projector was mechanically fixed in position to a large and stable structure, and had no means of mechanically allowing the beam to end up anywhere but on that church wall. There might be other permissions to worry about, and it's possible I'm missing things in the differences between UK and US law.

    EDIT:
    I read about a laser (Coherent Verdi, green DPSS, 5 watts), used at the Burning Man festival. It projected over several miles. It was terminated on a large white target so that the distant spot could be watched by a device that would interrupt the beam if it saw a change of light indicating that termination failed, or someone managed to intercept the beam. So I guess the US is essentially the same as UK if you are safe. As far as I know, a 'variance' is advance clearance granted to do certain things in predefined contexts. Even if you operated without one, maybe the worst that can happen to you, providing you can demonstrate safety, is legal fees owed to those who required you to be able to prove it. So it makes sense to have it if you're going to repeat a show. If you do it only once, and take care that no-one gets hurt, and no-one complains to anyone, there's a good chance no-one official will ever ask if you have a variance or not. But whatever chances anyone takes, worry about safety, not the law. It's the only way to get the law to treat you well. By which I mean: If you're safe, the variance is effectively insurance, granted on the assumption that you're not voidng the conditions it's granted for. And if you are NOT safe, the variance won't protect you even if you've got one.
    Last edited by The_Doctor; 08-29-2013 at 06:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flecom View Post
    variance would not matter if he is not participating in any commerce...

    FAA is gray area as it's terminated IIRC
    My understanding is... if it's outdoors... you file with the FAA, period. End of story. If it's terminated of course, you stand an excellent chance of approval but, if it's visible from the air and they can report the location, you may have unwanted visitors.

    As far as the variance... you could be right if it's not entered into commerce I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradfo69 View Post
    My understanding is... if it's outdoors... you file with the FAA, period. End of story. If it's terminated of course, you stand an excellent chance of approval but, if it's visible from the air and they can report the location, you may have unwanted visitors.
    I don't think you need to file for formal approval. It's not a variance where you are stating conditions you intend to operate in for return of granted license. It's more a case of them just wanting to know they're not going to get nasty surprises. Just tell them what you intend to do so they have nice calm answers to give to pilots who call in if they see it, and be willing to make changes they recommend, if any. If there's a problem they recognise, that you didn't, they'll tell you. It's more negotiation than formal approval. I remember Doug on Usenet talking about this. So long as it's not a distraction or danger to pilots, the local military don't really care so long as they don't have to deal with unexpected stuff. (And being local, your mileage may vary depending on who you get to speak to, rather than on any generalised formality). Just don't piss them off because those who DO have authority to stamp on you will do it if the military or civil flight people say they're upset about what you're doing.

    Doug spoke specifically about a lighthouse, I think, with a laser in it. Pilots ended up using that beam to help them navigate, and actually started complaining when it stopped. I think that like astronauts, they just like to know what to expect. The more they know, the more they can focus safely on what they don't. It's probably not their job to give or deny approval. They leave that to others, and I bet they'd rather not bother with any of it if they don't have to.
    Last edited by The_Doctor; 08-29-2013 at 09:20.

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    Technically, if you are using anything more powerful than Class 3A outside, you *MUST* obtain an FAA letter of non-objection first, even if your show is fully terminated.

    This is completely separate from the CDRH rules, so the "commerce clause" does not apply here. Even if commerce is not involved, the FAA still has absolute jurisdiction for any and all outdoor use of lasers.

    Now - in practice, if you are 20 miles from the nearest airport and running a fully-terminated show, you PROBABLY won't have any issues. That's not the same as being legal, mind you, just that you are so far off their radar as to be insignificant.

    But yeah, a bright projector operating in downtown Atlanta is a completely different story. Even if you are terminated, you still have news and police helicopters to worry about. That means you need aircraft spotters, multiple emission termination switches, and you damn well better have an FAA letter of non-objection, or you will get visited by someone with a badge and an attitude.

    Fortunately, Jim Martin from Peachtree Laser is located in Atlanta, and he is a great guy with lots of experience who would be perfect for a project like this. He's got years of commercial show experience, he's a respected ILDA member, and I know he's performed outdoor shows before so he is definitely familiar with the process for obtaining the necessary paperwork from the FAA. He's also taken on new people from time to time and "shown them the ropes" (unlike other companies), so he is someone who is far more likely to take an interest in something like this.

    I suggest Echelon get in touch with Jim and chat about the idea.

    Adam

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    Whoa...

    I've got to get to work, but I just wanted to let you guys know that I'm not ignoring this.

    I'm definitely going to check back into all of the aforementioned issues before doing any more projection in public. I have a lot of research to do tonight...

    As far as my university's indoor "Game Jam" goes, I'm not doing it as a commercial event. I'll look into variance, but do you think it would be required with those parameters?

    I'll look into touching base with Jim Martin, too.
    lasers.iobrand.io • bt at brand dot io • echelon at github (has some laser projector codes in Python and Rust)

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    Quote Originally Posted by echelon View Post
    As far as my university's indoor "Game Jam" goes, I'm not doing it as a commercial event. I'll look into variance, but do you think it would be required with those parameters?
    In the end it will probably come down to the attitude of the inspector, but technically if there is any commerce involved in the event (even indirect commerce that doesn't involve the laser staff), the commerce clause still applies and CDRH has jurisdiction.

    The classic example is someone who offers to do a "free" laser show for a bar or nightclub. Even though the laserist is not being paid, there is still commerce going on at the event (people buying drinks, paying the cover charge, etc), so the CDRH can still claim jurisdiction. (Their justification is that having the lasers present increases the draw of the event, thus the lasers contribute indirectly to commerce.)

    The really gray area is at a charitable event such as a church festival or picnic. True, usually donations are solicited at these sort of events, but churches are also non-profit, which would seem to negate the whole commerce clause. When I called the CDRH and asked this specific question years ago, I couldn't get a straight answer, but I have a feeling it would be allowed without a variance.

    Bottom line, a variance is always a good idea, even if you know you are free and clear otherwise. Here's why: If some one ever claims that they were injured by one of your lasers, you can pretty much guarantee they (or their insurance company) will sue you, even if the injury isn't real. And when you go to court, the first question you will face is: "Why didn't you follow the federal regulations regarding laser light shows?" Trying to argue that your event was a special case that didn't need to follow the rules is going to be difficult at best. This would be bad enough if the injury was real, but if the injury was faked (or mistakenly attributed to your lasers instead of some other cause), you are going to face quite the uphill battle...

    Getting a variance isn't as difficult as it sounds. Many people avoid the CDRH because they are afraid of the paperwork monster, but if you really show that you are trying to do things correctly, they can actually be very helpful. Also, the paperwork has gotten easier over the years, and there are many people here on PhotonLexicon who can help you if you get stuck.

    I'll look into touching base with Jim Martin, too.
    Jim is a great guy. You can learn a lot from him.

    Adam

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